What I find really funny is everyone trys to sell the Victory for being more powerful right off the showroom floor over the Harley Davidsons and how you don't have to go out and spend 3,000 to 5,000 dollars just to get to where Victory starts you off at.
Then you have the same group who went and got the cams and they then tell the rest of the Victory group that hey you have to get cams and it would be the first thing I would do if I bought another Victory is get cams. Figure when you do the cams, exhaust, air filter, timing wheel and fuel controller you have just dumped 3,000 grand into the Victory.
It seems that there are many who want their cake and they want to eat it as well.
About the graphs, I notice that the tri-ovals do not get a lot of love from the group who pushes the cams because of the cost of the tri-ovals but here that same group is using dyno charts on a bike that had the tri-ovals to try and show that the cammed bikes are making 100 foot pounds of torque by 2550 rpms.
Funny how such an unloved product like the tri-ovals becomes the battle cry.
All I know is my stock cammed Victory gets to 100 foot pounds of torque quicker than did the cammed Victory that was put on the same dyno that my bike was on.
The big differences between that bike and mine are different aftermarket exhaust and I have a Dobeck AFR+ Gen4 and his has the PCV and he has the Lloydz cams. Both bikes have the Lloydz air filter and Lloydz timing wheel.

Well now, the story changes quite a bit doesn't it! What have I been saying the last few posts??? Exhaust has a lot more to do with low end numbers than cams. And now we find out this cammed bike that reaches 100 ft-lbs 200 rpm's after yours does...has different exhaust. Thanks for proving my point. Here's some other things that can make a dyno graph change by 200 rpm's: Rear tire air pressure. Throttle cable adjustment. Drive belt adjustment. Dirty vs clean air filter. Take a look at the last graph I posted, a Vision with stock pipes. the addition of cams was NO loss of low end torque. That tells us that the loss of low end torque is coming not from the cams but elsewhere. I stand by all my previous posts. What you are seeing show up on a dyno graph is coming from opened up exhaust. And even with what you see in that graph, the cammed bike with open exhaust that is showing a low end loss on paper...that's still a faster bike. Ride one and you'll understand. Hell yes I want to eat my cake, what good is having cake if you can't eat it? Had you been following along for months or years that some of us have been into this stuff here's what you would've known by now. No, we are not saying everyone should buy cams. But yes we are saying that they're worth the price. Whenever someone asks about exhausts no the response is not simply "Vic stage 1 stuff sucks" It is, "what exactly are you looking to get out of your exhaust? Victory stage 1 looks nice and sounds nice. But if you want performance you can get more for less money on the aftermarket." It is true, if you want maximum performance the factory pipes are not the way to go. As I've tried to explain, you can put the air filter, timing wheel, fuel controller and stock or Vic S1 pipes on your bike and it will show on a dyno graph excellent low end torque. I can take the exact same set up with cams and it will still show excellent low end torque. Then I can then put an open exhaust on mine and yours will look like it has more low end torque, like below 2500 rpm's. And my bike will be faster from a stop light, faster at a freeway roll on, faster at anything other than a drag race to the other side of the intersection. There's just no other way about it, if you want a more powerful bike, cams deliver. Are they for everyone? No. But for a guy asking if they're worth it and another guy to claim they are not because you get better low end torque with the stock cams is just plain false. That's why you're getting blowback here.

 

Stock:

S1L1 pipes and VIP

Note loss of low end....
S1L1, VIP +VM-1 cams:

Note same below 2600 rpm, but much better after that... Straight off Lloydz site.
What was the cause of the torque losses? It looks like it was the exhaust and VIP...

 

Touring cams for comparison.

 

For the record..
I'm saying YES I recommend cams. Am I saying you "must" get them.. uh.. NOPE.

I'm saying YES the Tri-Oval is an acceptible exhaust for performance. Yes. For sound. Not bad. Am I saying it's an exceptionally awesome sounding and performing pipe.. NOPE. Mine do sound better though after cams. Extra benefit.

Had I to do it again, I'd risk all that low end stuff people say you lose and do the Freedom duals but probably would like how the Tri-Ovals pull better in the lowest range, but I'm not there often. The Tri-Ovals were in the deal I worked on the bike purchase, so there they are. If someone want's 'em in sub 1000 miles perfect condition, gimme a shout. Though I'd have to get her back on the dyno which would be less than a convenient swap I'm sure with Kyle up north and Kevin way down south from me.

 

Well good reading . So my ? To all out there I ride a 2014 cct trike is it a positive or a negative on a trike to add cams etc. Ran them on 08 vision pulling trailer and love the extra get up and go on 2 lane hi-ways

 

Well good reading . So my ? To all out there I ride a 2014 cct trike is it a positive or a negative on a trike to add cams etc. Ran them on 08 vision pulling trailer and love the extra get up and go on 2 lane hi-ways

Can't see it being a negative thing the extra power would be a great thing because of extra weight of trike set-up
Regards

 

If someone want's 'em in sub 1000 miles perfect condition, gimme a shout. Though I'd have to get her back on the dyno which would be less than a convenient swap I'm sure with Kyle up north and Kevin way down south from me.

Kyle comes to Myrtle Beach twice a year... May and October... 5 hour ride.

 

What was the cause of the torque losses? It looks like it was the exhaust and VIP...

So now I need cams an air filter an exhaust and a VIP? What the hell is this new VIP gizmo? Do I need to ride to Nebraska to get it installed?

 

So now I need cams an air filter an exhaust and a VIP? What the hell is this new VIP gizmo? Do I need to ride to Nebraska to get it installed?

Uh... what? VIP is Vision Intake Plate... No one is saying you "need" anything. It was a demonstation that the exhaust and intake is more the culprit in torque loss than the cams are... I hoped I had made myself clear, but apparently not.

 

Uh... what? VIP is Vision Intake Plate... No one is saying you "need" anything. It was a demonstation that the exhaust and intake is more the culprit in torque loss than the cams are... I hoped I had made myself clear, but apparently not.

I gotta tell ya, you have shown an admirable amount of patience in this thread,,,but I knew you couldn't just bite your tongue forever with all that disinformation,,,from the Cams are a waste of $$$$, even if I didn't buy them guy,,, My brain went from replying to just listening in, after he told me that the 150rpm difference to reach 100 ftlb actually made a difference. It would just be funny if you consider the accuracy of all the instruments involved (5-10% ?), then factored in the small fraction of a second to make up that 150 (my 1/4 turn throttle ring is quicker),,,,EXCEPT, he left out the other 20+ ftlb of torque my bike makes in all his assertions. Oh well,,, Keith

 

I gotta tell ya, you have shown an admirable amount of patience in this thread,,,but I knew you couldn't just bite your tongue forever with all that disinformation,,,from the Cams are a waste of $$$$, even if I didn't buy them guy,,, My brain went from replying to just listening in, after he told me that the 150rpm difference to reach 100 ftlb actually made a difference. It would just be funny if you consider the accuracy of all the instruments involved (5-10% ?), then factored in the small fraction of a second to make up that 150 (my 1/4 turn throttle ring is quicker),,,,EXCEPT, he left out the other 20+ ftlb of torque my bike makes in all his assertions. Oh well,,, Keith

Slow down there buddy. I don't see anywhere where anyone has said cams are a waste of money. What has been said is take it a step at a time and whom ever it is may find they are happy with the power of their bike before they get to the point of putting in cams thus saving them some money in the process.
There is nothing wrong with anyone not having the cams installed if they are happy with the power of their bike just as there is nothing wrong with having cams installed.
If someone wants the most power they can get and won't be satisified until they put in every performance item they can find until they reach that point then good for them. For many the combination of a good exhaust, programmer, air filter and timing wheel will be enough and they will be very happy with the performace of the bike while others will want to take the next stop.
It is called choice.

 

Slow down there buddy. I don't see anywhere where anyone has said cams are a waste of money. What has been said is take it a step at a time and whom ever it is may find they are happy with the power of their bike before they get to the point of putting in cams thus saving them some money in the process.
There is nothing wrong with anyone not having the cams installed if they are happy with the power of their bike just as there is nothing wrong with having cams installed.
If someone wants the most power they can get and won't be satisified until they put in every performance item they can find until they reach that point then good for them. For many the combination of a good exhaust, programmer, air filter and timing wheel will be enough and they will be very happy with the performace of the bike while others will want to take the next stop.
It is called choice.

If someone is satisfied with an intake, pipes and tune then absolutely good for them. The part that is wrong is implying or flat out stating that the rider will lose low end torque if he puts cams in. That's not a matter of choice, it's just a false statement.

 

Slow down there buddy.
It is called choice.

"Slow down there Buddy."? Really? Save your condescension Pal. Now, you want to stop trying to use heresay, false argument, and bad math, and just go to the principles involved? OK, here's a decent principle. Next time some one asks about CAM installs, just don't answer, since you have no experience with the issue. Or maybe, try to be honest and qualify your statements as Opinion without first hand info. Instead of speaking in absolutes with a subject you are guessing about. Or not, it is after all called choice. Keith

 

"Slow down there Buddy."? Really? Save your condescension Pal. Now, you want to stop trying to use heresay, false argument, and bad math, and just go to the principles involved? OK, here's a decent principle. Next time some one asks about CAM installs, just don't answer, since you have no experience with the issue. Or maybe, try to be honest and qualify your statements as Opinion without first hand info. Instead of speaking in absolutes with a subject you are guessing about. Or not, it is after all called choice. Keith

Slow down there buddy. I don't see anywhere where anyone has said cams are a waste of money. What has been said is take it a step at a time and whom ever it is may find they are happy with the power of their bike before they get to the point of putting in cams thus saving them some money in the process.
There is nothing wrong with anyone not having the cams installed if they are happy with the power of their bike just as there is nothing wrong with having cams installed.
If someone wants the most power they can get and won't be satisified until they put in every performance item they can find until they reach that point then good for them. For many the combination of a good exhaust, programmer, air filter and timing wheel will be enough and they will be very happy with the performace of the bike while others will want to take the next stop.
It is called choice.

Keith If that was condenscending you areway too sensitive. Ididn't read a put down by RedVic on installing cams in that paragraph. In fact when I inquired about a more bottom end torquer cam Ireceived a typical "get a Harley" response and it wasn't from him.RedVic spelled out why he doesn't think cams are always needed to tweak some more power out of the Vic. I understoodhis point.Didn't feel the need to bash him. do I agree on everything? no.His thoughts are put into words for more effectively that some of the counterpoint Bozosattacking him.

Try not to double bicep flexyour point. We're not in high school anymore.

 

Keith If that was condenscending you areway too sensitive. Ididn't read a put down by RedVic on installing cams in that paragraph. In fact when I inquired about a more bottom end torquer cam Ireceived a typical "get a Harley" response and it wasn't from him.RedVic spelled out why he doesn't think cams are always needed to tweak some more power out of the Vic. I understoodhis point.Didn't feel the need to bash him. do I agree on everything? no.His thoughts are put into words for more effectively that some of the counterpoint Bozosattacking him.

Try not to double bicep flexyour point. We're not in high school anymore.

I'm not really all that sensitive, although I do find baseless argument somewhat intellectually insulting. Even if two new guys do agree with each other about the issue in question. It wasn't RedVic who told you bottom end torque had more to do with exhaust flow than the Cam, it was IaBob and HC. So, whatever answer he had that you liked, was less than accurate. I missed the Harley comment directed at you, but I am thinking it was in response to a "Bozo" , "you are way too sensitive," "double bicep flex" like comment. Let's face it: The original question from the OP, wasn't replied to by anything you or RedVic had to say. "I've read all the posts and know all the Pros to the things I'm about to have installed but was wondering if there were any Cons? I know there's the possibility of voiding my warranty but is there anything else? Hard starting, etc.?" Keith

 

"I've read all the posts and know all the Pros to the things I'm about to have installed but was wondering if there were any Cons? I know there's the possibility of voiding my warranty but is there anything else? Hard starting, etc.?" Keith

If suggesting that you might be giving up some bottom end (multiple reponses) wasn't a "con"from theOP's inquiry on installing camsthen Imissed something in the translation.

 

If suggesting that you might be giving up some bottom end (multiple reponses) wasn't a "con" from the OP's inquiry on installing cams then I missed something in the translation.

And here we are full circle. What it seems you missed was those responses suggesting he may be giving up bottom end torque were...FALSE. Some of us tried to explain that and we got accused of cheerleading for Lloyd and trying to say everyone needs to buy cams. So BS was piled on the BS and now we're being accused of being argumentative and sensitive for trying to get some truth out there. Oh happy day.

 

If suggesting that you might be giving up some bottom end (multiple reponses) wasn't a "con" from the OP's inquiry on installing cams then I missed something in the translation.

Opinions, suggestions, and theories, aren't the same as providing an answer. Certainly, they are replies, but you are providing a false equivalency as if they were two sides to an argument. If you say that the experience, information, and facts provided by those with some history with the equipment in question, is the same as the "suggestions" based on anecdotal here-say I have wasted my time responding at all. HC, I want extra credit for not name calling. Kg

 

And here we are full circle. What it seems you missed was those responses suggesting he may be giving up bottom end torque were...FALSE. Some of us tried to explain that and we got accused of cheerleading for Lloyd and trying to say everyone needs to buy cams. So BS was piled on the BS and now we're being accused of being argumentative and sensitive for trying to get some truth out there. Oh happy day.

For every dyno sheet you can post someone else can post one where bottom end was moved up the RPM range, so yes it is possible to lose some of the bottom end torque.
Hell even Half Crazy made the statement in defense of having cams that you just twist the throttle until you are in the RPM range for the torque to come on. That in its self is an admission that yes you can end up moving the low end torque a little higher in the RPM range.
What if the guys exhaust is such that with the cams he goes from 2450 RPM for the torque to come on up to 2650 RPM, are you telling me that person is not going to notice the lost low end torque.
You like your cams great but they are not the be all end all of the motorcycle.
For you to say it does not happen is just plain dishonest. What about those who want the highest horse power, they are going to select the touring cams and everyone knows they do lose some of the bottom end response.
I really don't understand why you think it has to be an all or nothing deal. What is the problem with going a step at a time? Well other than you become happy with the power of the bike before you get to the point of installing cams and decide to pass due to being satisfied with the bike.
For some reason that just sets you guys off who have the cams. I might one day decided to get cams just for the sake of doing it, but it won't be because I feel my engine is lacking power. As it stands at the moment I just don't feel the need.

 

iabob,
One of the first posts in this thread is from you stating as fact, find someone who was not happy with cams and that would be a first. In this thread there are two posts of people who ended up not impressed and would not do it again. I posted about one of them and someone else posted who had the cams on their bike that they were not impressed and would not do it again.
The guy wanted to know about any cons to getting cams he was given some that he can work on finding a solution to and do the cams or he can say you know what let me go in stages and just maybe he will be satisified before he gets to cams or maybe he will say yeah lets go the next step and do the cams.
The ones who seem to get bent out of shape are you guys with the cams who think just because you have them and like them everyone else has to like them as well and we know of at least two cases where people who did get the cams ended up regretting it.
You want to push those people to the side because they don't agree with you.

 

If suggesting that you might be giving up some bottom end (multiple reponses) wasn't a "con"from theOP's inquiry on installing camsthen Imissed something in the translation.

Example A: Redvic's last two responses. Fact, if cams caused a loss of low end torque then putting then on a bike with stock intake and exhaust would show this. There is no loss. Fact, air velocity at the intake and exhaust gas velocity in the pipes dramatically effect low end torque ( and high end too for that matter ). Cams change valve operation at all rpm's. just because the most benefit is reached at a higher rpm does not necessarily mean a loss lower in the range. On my KP my first mods were an S&S intake and S1 slip ons with an ecu remap. The wide open S&S has lower air velocity compared to stock at lower rpm's. My overall power was up, but I did have a loss of torque on the low end. When I added cams the torque curve rose....from BEGINNING right up to redline. When I added high compression pistons and an RPW Thor (thanks to fellow peacocks like HC who graciously shares success and failure stories) again my torque went up ACROSS THE BOARD. When I had The Vic Shop add a timing wheel I gained a little low end and lost a little high end. I'm not extrapolating a guess from looking at two dyno sheets of the same bike with different exhausts, I'm speaking from experience.

 

iabob, 20 years in the oldIDBA as taught me that cams to not "widen" the torque curve. They move the torque produced to a different part of the RPM's. So if anyone wants to question that a cam that has a strong midrange top end hit can't ask how that is possible without sacrificing bottom end is a fool for asking and questioning? That's all RedVic and I asked...

Now a real gear head wouldhave responded if the information was available would have been. "That can be the case but a Lloyes timing wheel will bring back any percievedloss of torque on the bottom end. With thiswheel caution should be noted that now the cranking pressures in the midrange will rise faster with a more agressive cam so always used the best gas you can and be prepared to back of the wheel if needed."

No, That's not what the response was.... sorry...

 

iabob, 20 years in the oldIDBA as taught me that cams to not "widen" the torque curve. They move the torque produced to a different part of the RPM's. So if anyone wants to question that a cam that has a strong midrange top end hit can't ask how that is possible without sacrificing bottom end is a fool for asking and questioning? That's all RedVic and I asked...

Now a real gear head wouldhave responded if the information was available would have been. "That can be the case but a Lloyes timing wheel will bring back any percievedloss of torque on the bottom end. With thiswheel caution should be noted that now the cranking pressures in the midrange will rise faster with a more agressive cam so always used the best gas you can and be prepared to back of the wheel if needed."

No, That's not what the response was.... sorry...

Now you've obviously gone off the deep end!! How does 20 years in the International Dragon Boat Association (IDBA) help this argument? Just asking now, since you are a Drag Bike guy, but don't CAMs have Lift and Duration, and doesn't this not only, "move the torque produced to a different part of the RPM's," as you said but increase overall TQ? AND, if engineered correctly flatten the torque curve to provide a broader range? KG

 

iabob, 20 years in the old IDBA as taught me that cams to not "widen" the torque curve. They move the torque produced to a different part of the RPM's. So if anyone wants to question that a cam that has a strong midrange top end hit can't ask how that is possible without sacrificing bottom end is a fool for asking and questioning? That's all RedVic and I asked...

Now a real gear head would have responded if the information was available would have been. "That can be the case but a Lloyes timing wheel will bring back any percieved loss of torque on the bottom end. With this wheel caution should be noted that now the cranking pressures in the midrange will rise faster with a more agressive cam so always used the best gas you can and be prepared to back of the wheel if needed."

No, That's not what the response was.... sorry...

Or better yet how about just giving honest responses? A person is only a fool if they're misrepresenting information and when presented with factual evidence they just repeat their prior false claims as if repeating a lie enough times will make it truth. Here is the real truth: If you are concerned about a loss of low end torque, real or just perceived, then sticking to opening up intake and exhaust and skipping the cams is the exact opposite of what you should do. If you want more power with no low end dip on the torque curve then the way to get it is to add cams, tuner, and timing wheel, leave the stock pipes and intake alone. It's been too long a thread, I don't honestly know if it was you and Redvic, just one of you, or other posters...but it wasn't "just" questioned how it's possible to gain mid to high range without sacrificing low end. Rather, it was flat out claimed that the cams were the cause of the low end loss. I and others pointed out that such a claim was false and then it became a pissing match. If you're just questioning then the answer remains, opening up the intake and exhaust causes a small loss of low end torque. This is not a "con" to replacing the cams.

 

Or better yet how about just giving honest responses? A person is only a fool if they're misrepresenting information and when presented with factual evidence they just repeat their prior false claims as if repeating a lie enough times will make it truth. Here is the real truth: If you are concerned about a loss of low end torque, real or just perceived, then sticking to opening up intake and exhaust and skipping the cams is the exact opposite of what you should do. If you want more power with no low end dip on the torque curve then the way to get it is to add cams, tuner, and timing wheel, leave the stock pipes and intake alone. It's been too long a thread, I don't honestly know if it was you and Redvic, just one of you, or other posters...but it wasn't "just" questioned how it's possible to gain mid to high range without sacrificing low end. Rather, it was flat out claimed that the cams were the cause of the low end loss. I and others pointed out that such a claim was false and then it became a pissing match. If you're just questioning then the answer remains, opening up the intake and exhaust causes a small loss of low end torque. This is not a "con" to replacing the cams.

You are right iabob, put in the cams and your bike will automatically get 100 miles per gallon, make 305 horse power and produce 610 foot pounds of torque.
Where is the down side?
Can you please invite the rest of us to this fantasy land, we could use the vacation.