[RedVic]

One last source to prove the myth about synthetic oil wrong, I will preface this one comes from Amsoil but it is just as valid as the other two I have posted. It is time to once a for all put to bed the untrue myth about synthetic oil.

Does Synthetic Oil Cause Harley Roller Bearing Problems?

 

[RedVic]

To lighten up the mood here is a video from the past from a Victory dealer who clearly does not know what he is talking about. In fact he has spread a lot old myth and out right lies about oil.

His information about synthetic oil is all completely wrong.

I would like to know where he is getting the 20w-50 magic Victory oil that works like Freon, heck makes me want to get a box of Lucky Charms as they to are magically delicious.

 

[robsvision]

One last source to prove the myth about synthetic oil wrong, I will preface this one comes from Amsoil but it is just as valid as the other two I have posted. It is time to once a for all put to bed the untrue myth about synthetic oil.

Does Synthetic Oil Cause Harley Roller Bearing Problems?

That was a good read. But I will stick to what I said above about synth oil and friction modifiers.
There is a HUGE difference in how slippery oil is with friction modifiers ....
I have replaced ball bearings in machines that were using synth oil with friction modifiers ( basic high end car oil) watched it first hand how the balls in the bearings were not turning but sliding or skating in the race.
Replacing the bearing and checking the old bearing showed no sign of dirt stopping the balls or flaking on the race. Washing out the bearing and packing with grease and it was fine.

But that was not from Wet Clutch Motorcycle oil. Synth oil for motorcycles is not designed to be super slippery. It's has been designed to stand up to heat and shearing better than regular oil.

So I can see where the wives tales come from.
You can run a car oil with friction modifiers in a Harley motor. And that wives tale would come true......it would skate the bearings. And since they use a seperate oil in the primary there would be no clutch slip. And I think it's a great idea. Personally I hate common sump oil.
I would like to have to sumps. One for clutch and gears and one for the motor.
That way we could run a heavier gear oil and a lighter motor oil.

So back in the day before synth MC oil that Harley mith was prob a truth....

 

[robsvision]

Here is a challenge for those who want to believe the myths being spread by the gurus, write a letter to Victory/Polaris and ask them if synthetic oil will void your Victory warranty.

I will bet you that Victory will not put in writing that a synthetic oil will void your Victory's warranty, hell there is no way they can because they are using semi-synthetic oil under their own brand name for both Victory and Indian so if synthetic oil was going to cause engine damage or even clutch problems why in the hell would Victory and Indian both use semi-synthetic oil?

Better yet ask the four gurus if synthetic oil is so bad for Victory engines and clutches why is Victory using semi-synthetic oil? After all a semi-synthetic oil is as close as you can get to full synthetic oil as you can get. A semi-synthetic oil contains up to 30% synthetic oil in its mix.

Does Victory respond to anyone after the sale?
Sorry had to say it. Polaris drives me crazy with there ignore you after the sale customer service.

 

[Squatch]

Btw, I remember your conversation with Lloyd about oil, and the facts he presented about Vic's containing multiple (3?) types of bearings, while fully synthetic oil worked best with a single type bearing.

Correct me if I am wrong, but your reply to his facts, was anecdotally based on your own bike, while he was trying to make general recommendations for ALL his customers.

Btw, I used full synth in every vehicle I have owned since they started making it readily available, but I find that irrelevant. Especially since my bike shed has no; Harleys, Fords, Dodges, toyotas, Goldwings, or fleet trucks.

The discussion with Mr Greer, you are correct in what he had said that in his experience this Synthetic stuff kills a Vic motor due to the Ball bearings sliding and not rolling in their races. Now more to the story, I use oil analysis to determine the health of my engines. Proper oil analysis will show particulate matter and can be traced to components breaking down ( I think we can agree on this point). My analysis shows no abnormal wear and I am using full synthetic.

Hummm how can that be if Mr Greer states that oils such as AMSOIL are "Too slippery" and cause the ball bearing not to roll and fail.

I was told that my bike would be in the shop at 60k miles due to bad bearings as a result of the oil I use. I must be an exception or impending doom is just around the corner because I have 60k mile on my bike and show no hints of impending doom.

I do not dispute Lloyds finding on bearing failures, I just can't connect the use of a full synthetic oil to the root cause for the failure. So I correct my statement that the conversation tilts toward abuse, Comparing what I have in oil analysis on my bike, and what was told to me from Mr Greer, the two do not align. Therefor the only conclusions I can draw from the conversation are these:

1) The Bearings that Ma Vic are using are inherently flawed and are breaking down after a certain number of hours ( Hours equating to miles driven) leading the builders to the oil conclusion. I would like to see the evidence of the failed parts.
2) The operator of the bike is abusive in nature and stresses the components to the point of failure. The 106 engine was design to a spec, and lives well within that spec. is it well enough? I think we both know that answer as we have both modified the machines we ride and are quite happy with the way they work.

Time will tell, I will be quite happy to buy you a case or crate of your favorite beverage if I am found blown up on the side of the road over the next few weeks as I will have greatly surpassed the mythical 60K mark with Synthetic oil internal to my ride.

 

[Squatch]

PS,
Don't miss read what I am saying , I am a huge fan of the Lloydz Team and all of Lloydz Builders/tuners. On the point of Oil, I am not sold as the oil being the single point of failure.

 

[Keith Grey]

The discussion with Mr Greer, you are correct in what he had said that in his experience this Synthetic stuff kills a Vic motor due to the Ball bearings sliding and not rolling in their races. Now more to the story, I use oil analysis to determine the health of my engines. Proper oil analysis will show particulate matter and can be traced to components breaking down ( I think we can agree on this point). My analysis shows no abnormal wear and I am using full synthetic.

Hummm how can that be if Mr Greer states that oils such as AMSOIL are "Too slippery" and cause the ball bearing not to roll and fail.

I was told that my bike would be in the shop at 60k miles due to bad bearings as a result of the oil I use. I must be an exception or impending doom is just around the corner because I have 60k mile on my bike and show no hints of impending doom.

I do not dispute Lloyds finding on bearing failures, I just can't connect the use of a full synthetic oil to the root cause for the failure. So I correct my statement that the conversation tilts toward abuse, Comparing what I have in oil analysis on my bike, and what was told to me from Mr Greer, the two do not align. Therefor the only conclusions I can draw from the conversation are these:

1) The Bearings that Ma Vic are using are inherently flawed and are breaking down after a certain number of hours ( Hours equating to miles driven) leading the builders to the oil conclusion. I would like to see the evidence of the failed parts.
2) The operator of the bike is abusive in nature and stresses the components to the point of failure. The 106 engine was design to a spec, and lives well within that spec. is it well enough? I think we both know that answer as we have both modified the machines we ride and are quite happy with the way they work.

Time will tell, I will be quite happy to buy you a case or crate of your favorite beverage if I am found blown up on the side of the road over the next few weeks as I will have greatly surpassed the mythical 60K mark with Synthetic oil internal to my ride.

Couple points:

1. Lloyd never asserted that synth was a single point of failure, he did attribute it to exacerbating the ball bearing weakness.
2. All the oil analysis in the world will not indicate the shape or symmetry of a ball bearing and it's race.
3. Particulate matter in an oil trend analysis report would possibly indicate damage, but it's absence does not preclude it.

Like I said, you may get 80-180k miles out of your bike, and I suspect good maintenance and riding technique pushes the limit of that 60k he predicted. My assumption is that if you follow his advise and use a good semisynthetic, replaced at more than the 5k miles suggested by Vic, you get more than you would by NOT following his advise.

Good luck, and I hope your red light running blue monster sets a whole new standard for longevity, but I will still point to full synth as a lesser choice when asked.

 

[RedVic]

One last time, synthetic oil is not more slippery than conventional or semi-synthetic oil. That is an untrue myth. The reason synthetic oil is superior to conventional oil is because each molecule is the same size so it resists break down better than conventional oil and it can protect better and carry heat away better because conventional oils molecules are different sizes and the smaller molecules break down faster providing less protection over time.

I see Lloyd is also now in conflict with Barnett with their clutch packs, Lloyd is saying there is no warranty if you use synthetic oil or any oil other than Victory brand oil for that matter, yet if you go to the Barnett site they state in black and white that their clutch packs are compatible for use with synthetic oil.

Sorry but this moves more to the Lloyd is an older mechanic who has fallen into the synthetic oil is the boogieman group. Anything that they can't explain why it broke gets blamed on synthetic oil. There are a lot of mechanics out there who fall into this group.

Lloydz statement :

Barnett Clutch Kit (Fibers & Plates)
Barnet Clutch Kit (Fibers & Plates)
USE VICTORY OIL ONLY!!
NO WARRANTY IF USED WITH SYNTHETIC OR OTHER OILS.
Price:$207.95

Barnett statement:

Frequently Asked Questions

Q: Can I use synthetic oil or a synthetic blend with a Barnett clutch?
A: Yes. Barnett clutches are designed to work with any type of "motorcycle specific" oil. We DO NOT recommend the use of automotive oils or additives.

 

[Squatch]

Couple points:

1. Lloyd never asserted that synth was a single point of failure, he did attribute it to exacerbating the ball bearing weakness.
2. All the oil analysis in the world will not indicate the shape or symmetry of a ball bearing and it's race.
3. Particulate matter in an oil trend analysis report would possibly indicate damage, but it's absence does not preclude it.

Like I said, you may get 80-180k miles out of your bike, and I suspect good maintenance and riding technique pushes the limit of that 60k he predicted. My assumption is that if you follow his advise and use a good semisynthetic, replaced at more than the 5k miles suggested by Vic, you get more than you would by NOT following his advise.

Good luck, and I hope your red light running blue monster sets a whole new standard for longevity, but I will still point to full synth as a lesser choice when asked.

I respectful disagree.
1) The type of oil (synthetic) directly attributes to the ball bearing not rotating in the race (too slippery) and causing the wear and the bearing to fail. (paraphrased from Lloyd)
2) Oil analysis indicates the presence of material in the oil. normal wear materials are not an issue when a type or types of material increase there is a clear indication that something is wearing faster than it should. Bearings are made of hardened martials along with the matching races if they are breaking down the material will show up in the oil analysis. You oil filter is not good enough to catch all the fine particles.
3) particulate matter in the oil indicates something is failing or wearing rapidly, true statement. Absence of particulate matter is a clear indication at that point in time that you have a healthy engine. If damage is being done it will revile itself in the oil analysis.

"... I suspect good maintenance and riding technique pushes the limit of that 60k he predicted..." Interesting point, so if one doesn't follow good maintenance procedures and riding technique the oil is to blame? This illustrates my point about operator abuse.

I have the utmost respect for Lloyd and the boyz, hot rods are hot rods and require special care and feeding. If I can get 180,000 miles out of Ole Blue then the force is with me and I will rebuild into the next great engine and keep on keeping on. If indeed I am found on the road dead next week.... you can say I told you so and the Force has left me.

This has been a good discussion, I have a stack of oil analysis reports showing the health of my engines, none of which are showing abnormal wear. I will pull another sample this week and send off. I will be happy to post when I return from hot bike. Lloyd has a crate full of busted motors to illustrate his point.

Cheers

 

[Squatch]

One last point,
I am not trying to change the oil people use or to say Lloyd is miss leading us to use only Ma Vic oils. My point is very simply that analysis is a tool to keep a check on the internal components of you motor. Analysis will not say that the cam bearing is bad or the main beaing is wornout, it will lead you to abnormal wear or rapid wear of that type of material. You can diagnose the wear between the flat type bearings and roller type bearings just not which ones.

Part of my job is performing RDT&E and well as S&T. I know lots of letters but you know what they mean. as such anything that doesn't live up to spec gets scrutinized to the point of finding the design flaw or the point of failure and why.

 

[Squatch]

So, Back to OP question about the ghost shifting transmission???? what was found? is there a cause and what did you do to fix it?

 

[Keith Grey]

One last point,
I am not trying to change the oil people use or to say Lloyd is miss leading us to use only Ma Vic oils. My point is very simply that analysis is a tool to keep a check on the internal components of you motor. Analysis will not say that the cam bearing is bad or the main beaing is wornout, it will lead you to abnormal wear or rapid wear of that type of material. You can diagnose the wear between the flat type bearings and roller type bearings just not which ones.

Part of my job is performing RDT&E and well as S&T. I know lots of letters but you know what they mean. as such anything that doesn't live up to spec gets scrutinized to the point of finding the design flaw or the point of failure and why.

LOL, so;

If your RDT&E BAs fall under the codified MFPs for FYDP do you report directly to DOD on outcomes, or through an ATD program group?

Sorry, but just started doing 40clp to refresh COR III cert, so I'm all acronyms out by the DAU and my own FAITAS profile.

Kg

P.s. Much easier whenever your R&D programs are opaque,,,,

 

[robsvision]

This has been interesting read. At least for me.

I copied this from one of the links posted in this thread...

.................
We do have a theory on how this misconception took hold and why it continues to circulate. In the early days of synthetics, motorcycle riders may have used automotive synthetic engine oil in their transmissions looking to gain the benefits of a synthetic in their bikes. Unfortunately, automotive motor oils for gasoline service; both synthetic and conventional, contain friction modifiers. Friction modifiers are additives that literally reduce friction and improve fuel economy. All automotive engine oils for gasoline service are mandated to contain these. Simply put, friction modifiers are incompatible with motorcycle wet clutches. They will cause the clutch to slip under load and eventually glaze the clutch plates. Once this occurs, the only cure is a replacement of the clutch plates. Again this applies to both synthetic and conventional automotive engine oils for gasoline service. This canard seems to have stuck to synthetic motor oil because it is perceived to be “slipperier”. This error may still be happening to this day. Motorcycle oils (again both synthetic and conventional) do not contain friction modifiers.
Ok he was talking about wet clutch. But as you can see friction modifiers do make the oil slipperier.
If they didn't why would the clutch slip. Why would you get better mileage ......"
..........................
I have always used synth oil in my bike. Just want the best protection I can get. The gears in the 106 transmision ride on roller bearings. A great idea for longevity.
The reason I bring this up is my transmision is making a noise that I can't quite put my finger on. The more I think of it the more I get the impression that I am going to find worn bearings. Not failed bearings but worn bearings. Bearings that are worn allowing one or more of the gears to rock on the shaft causing the metallic sound I have. This sound has been there since new.
Just been getting slowly louder over time and miles.
I will open up the motor over the winter and see what all the racket is about.
And if it is a bearing that is still n one piece but worn and sloppy !!!!
Will this make Lloyd right or will this be a case of a bad bearing right from day one?
Now this is considering I will find a bad bearing. I just can't think of anything else that can be making this noise. Considering the bike shifts fine. Sounds ok until a load is put on it. And doesn't make the noise in fith gear.
Killer is by the time winter comes and I pull the motor apart. This thread will be history and long forgotten.

 

[wschellh]

Based on manual transmission rebuilds either 4,5, 13 or 18 speed on highway vehicles is sounds like an internal transmission issues. Of course I don't know the whole story but can give some insight behind the mechanical world.
I am an Instructor at a Polytechnic Trade School.
If your transmission is in 6th gear and under load and downshifts to 5th gear it is called "slip out". This usually relates to sliding clutch or also know as synchronizer issue. The teeth on the syncro are worn and walk apart under load on the main shaft which gives either a neutral or downshift feeling. If the transmission shifts into 5th while no load it is called "jump out" and a neutral or downshift may occur. In either case it is related to transmission problems not "clutch" itself. If the clutch had issues it should be in all gears not isolated. Failures of all mechanical nature fall into 4 categories.
First is manufacture: usually part failure at the early stage of the components life.
Second is alignment: Assembly issues or repair not correctly performed etc. etc
Third is overload: This usually is the operator not using component as designed to. Could be riding habits (shifting etc), mechanical hp or torque improvement and so on.
Forth is lubrication: Overheat and signs of lack of lube is related to inspection of the metals to see if "blueing" or overheat signs are present.
Very rarely is lubrication an issue. An oil analysis needs to be performed with proper documentation and history of previous oil samples to determine the oils condition. Looking for rise in ppm in metals, acid, oxidation etc.

Hope this helps, if not and I am out to lunch so be it. No hard feelings.

 

[schrome]

2011 Victory Cross Country
Anyone know anything about transmission warranty on a 2011? My snapring took a crap brought it to a victory dealer and cost me 6k. They never said anything about it possibly being under warranty.

 

[lou8700]

2011 Victory Cross Country
Anyone know anything about transmission warranty on a 2011? My snapring took a crap brought it to a victory dealer and cost me 6k. They never said anything about it possibly being under warranty.

Did you already get it fixed? Vic shop would fix for half that. Lloyd's has brand new motors for $3150 on eBay.