Just my thoughts but the Victory sky is not falling. Polaris has said since the beginning they're going to operate as separate companies. Not sure how you determined that "the market for Indians seems to be exclusively current Victory riders and people who are either brand loyal to Indian/nostalgia or anti Harley". How have you determined that owners of other brands aren't buying an Indian? Even a few of my Moto Guzzi buddies are now or will be considering going to Indian for their next bike. Perhaps riders from Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Triumph and even BMW riders feel that way as well. I know all the Polaris attention is on Indian right now. Frankly, it needs to be. They need for this line to be successful, very successful. So cheer on Indian instead of being worried Victory is going away. Victory will be fine, they make some fantastic motorcycles. But in the end, it's a consumers market. Sales of Victory and Indian are the real judge of success or failure. Only those who are running Polaris know what they expected from Victory compared to where they are now. Same with Indian. Getting this Indian baby off the successfully off the ground is an enormous endeavor. One that as a Victory CCT owner, I'm very pleased with what they're doing with Indian. It will likely only make us stronger as well.

 

Just my thoughts but the Victory sky is not falling. Polaris has said since the beginning they're going to operate as separate companies. Not sure how you determined that "the market for Indians seems to be exclusively current Victory riders and people who are either brand loyal to Indian/nostalgia or anti Harley". How have you determined that owners of other brands aren't buying an Indian? Even a few of my Moto Guzzi buddies are now or will be considering going to Indian for their next bike. Perhaps riders from Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Triumph and even BMW riders feel that way as well. I know all the Polaris attention is on Indian right now. Frankly, it needs to be. They need for this line to be successful, very successful. So cheer on Indian instead of being worried Victory is going away. Victory will be fine, they make some fantastic motorcycles. But in the end, it's a consumers market. Sales of Victory and Indian are the real judge of success or failure. Only those who are running Polaris know what they expected from Victory compared to where they are now. Same with Indian. Getting this Indian baby off the successfully off the ground is an enormous endeavor. One that as a Victory CCT owner, I'm very pleased with what they're doing with Indian. It will likely only make us stronger as well.

I like the nostalgic magic of the Indian, but I love the modern Victory line. HD is a great American motorcycle company with a ton of history, but Victory and Polaris are now putting out America's hottest new line in addition to updating one of the great lines in the history of motorcycles. You know who wins, American motorcycle riders. Come on spring!

 

I think the single digit cannibalization estimate is pretty close. A few weeks ago I was in Sioux Falls visiting the Vic/Indian dealer. At that time they had already delivered 11 Indian's. Nine of those buyers came off a Harley. If that's typical then Polaris exec's should be dancing a jig right about now. As for trickle down tech, I suspect we'll see some if it but keep in mind Victory and Indian have not yet gone through side by side R&D. Something Polaris has built infrastructure to do. The last all new bike released by Victory was the 2010 Cross release. So Cross R&D was taking place around 2006-2007. Whatever R&D they did since has either been incremental changes to Victory, or it's gone into the Chief. So it would be pretty easy to see a future Cross Country have an electric windshield or throttle by wire but as far as future bike development Victory and Indian now or soon will have separate R&D staff and facilities. So I don't think you'll see very much of what comes out on an Indian now shows up on a Victory later. I think going forward you'll see a lot more differences and simultaneous introduction of new, and separate technologies.

 

Not sure how you determined that "the market for Indians seems to be exclusively current Victory riders and people who are either brand loyal to Indian/nostalgia or anti Harley". How have you determined that owners of other brands aren't buying an Indian? Even a few of my Moto Guzzi buddies are now or will be considering going to Indian for their next bike. Perhaps riders from Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Triumph and even BMW riders feel that way as well.

I never said the sky was falling, simply stated that if the innovation on Indians continues to surpass Victory it will drive up the cannibalization. Now as far as your question on how I determined the market ... you answered it. Everyone you listed as considering Indian fall into one of my three catagories ie currently not on Harley's and considering Indian not Victory.

 

I think the single digit cannibalization estimate is pretty close. A few weeks ago I was in Sioux Falls visiting the Vic/Indian dealer. At that time they had already delivered 11 Indian's. Nine of those buyers came off a Harley. If that's typical then Polaris exec's should be dancing a jig right about now. As for trickle down tech, I suspect we'll see some if it but keep in mind Victory and Indian have not yet gone through side by side R&D. Something Polaris has built infrastructure to do. The last all new bike released by Victory was the 2010 Cross release. So Cross R&D was taking place around 2006-2007. Whatever R&D they did since has either been incremental changes to Victory, or it's gone into the Chief. So it would be pretty easy to see a future Cross Country have an electric windshield or throttle by wire but as far as future bike development Victory and Indian now or soon will have separate R&D staff and facilities. So I don't think you'll see very much of what comes out on an Indian now shows up on a Victory later. I think going forward you'll see a lot more differences and simultaneous introduction of new, and separate technologies.

Couldn't agree more. But I have to imagine that 90% of Indian sales won't be from Harley riders lol

 

Couldn't agree more. But I have to imagine that 90% of Indian sales won't be from Harley riders lol

Where I live 75% of the Indian sales have come from Harley owners wanting a traditional looking american bike, or a bike like this for their wife. This is what the Indian salesman told me.

 

Also that example from your local dealer supports my point that the cannibalization will be higher than single digit. That's 9 Harley owners who were willing to get a different brand, and chose Indian over Victory.

 

Couldn't agree more. But I have to imagine that 90% of Indian sales won't be from Harley riders lol

Wanna bet?

 

Also that example from your local dealer supports my point that the cannibalization will be higher than single digit. That's 9 Harley owners who were willing to get a different brand, and chose Indian over Victory.

Cannibalization doesn't mean potential Victory buyers, it means current Victory owners trading for a new Indian instead of a new Victory.

 

Cannibalization doesn't mean potential Victory buyers, it means current Victory owners trading for a new Indian instead of a new Victory.

Understood, my point is it's not possible to quantify how many potential Victory buyers will get an Indian. Which may not be cannibalization but it certainly distorts whatever Polaris' forecast for Victory's growth.

 

Cannibalization doesn't mean potential Victory buyers, it means current Victory owners trading for a new Indian instead of a new Victory.

Victory has something new to offer?

 

Please see iabob's post right under mine. As is his normal SOP, I think he nailed it. Perhaps not your feeling but too many Victory owners have started threads on this and other forums asking essentially, "what's going to happen to Victory now that all the attention is on Indian". Like I said, cheering on Indian sales could only help Victory in the long run. Most of my riding brothers are on a Harley-Davidson. The more they see and hear about my Victory CCT the more likely some of them are to go another brand on their next bike purchase. I suspect, as iabob pointed out, many new Indian owners are simply looking for something similar but different. Indian could be perfect for many of these riders. Some H-D riders bought a Harley-Davidson to be different and to stand out from the crowd. Only to very quickly find out that owning a Harley is about as bland as motorcycle choice as can be made. They go on a few rides to discover they can barely find their own bike in the sea of H-D sameness. That's the H-D rider that will be likely to consider an Indian or a Victory on their next bike purchase. I know that when I ride into a large gathering of motorcycles on my pearl white Victory CCT, just about everyone notices and many come over to check it out. Nearly all the comments are very positive. I suspect that same scenario is on the plate for the new Indian rider. That's my take on it anyway.

 

Victory has something new to offer?

Round headlight?

 

have started threads on this and other forums asking essentially, "what's going to happen to Victory now that all the attention is on Indian".

Again never said the sky was falling or Polaris is paying too much attention to Indian. I want Indian to be succesful, and I like the brands remaining independent. Just suggesting that with Indian having more innovative things could cannibalize more than they estimate.

 

Hell I'm a potential cannibal myself, that Chieftain is a beast!!

 

Hell I'm a potential cannibal myself, that Chieftain is a beast!!

I wonder if the Chieftain's Fairing will fit my XR..... Now that is a Cannibal!

 

I wonder if the Chieftain's Fairing will fit my XR..... Now that is a Cannibal!

Let's put that 111 pony into my Kingpin and Little pony will be come Big F^&%&*^ Horse

 

Let's put that 111 pony into my Kingpin

You'll need to go to Tractor Supply and pick up some weights to keep the frontend down!

 

You'll need to go to Tractor Supply and pick up some weights to keep the frontend down!

Yes I would LOL or have the wife seat on the handle bar.

 

A few weeks ago I was in Sioux Falls visiting the Vic/Indian dealer. At that time they had already delivered 11 Indian's. Nine of those buyers came off a Harley. If that's typical then Polaris exec's should be dancing a jig right about now.

Well, here's a good question - were the 9 Indian buyers, who just previously owned H-D bikes, allowed to trade in their Harley's? And if so, were they placed on the dealership floor, or just where would they put them on display for resale? Considering that Polaris is anal about the exclusivity of the Indian brand, where they want separate entrances to the dealerships and want no other brands to share floor space, did that particular dealership even take in any trades as would be the case with H-D shops? Food for thought...

 

Let's put that 111 pony into my Kingpin and Little pony will be come Big F^&%&*^ Horse

To gain what?
This is the Indian 111 (73/101):

This is a stock Vic 106" (84/97):

This is a stock Vic 100" (75/94):

 

Also that example from your local dealer supports my point that the cannibalization will be higher than single digit. That's 9 Harley owners who were willing to get a different brand, and chose Indian over Victory.

I see it differently. Maybe those Harley riders were willing to get a different brand, but seeing as they were still riding their Harleys 15 years into Victory's existence, I don't think Victory wasthe different brand they were willing to get. Most likely they were dissatisfied/disinterested Harley owners who saw Indian as another choice thatwould stillallow them to hold onto their "heritage", thereby allowing them to remain respected by all their Harley riding buddies. I'm sure there are many, many more of them out there that would never be willing to trade in their beloved Harley on "one of them new-fangled, futuristic looking Victory bikes". I think that is exactly the target audience Polaris is chasing after with the Indian brand.

 

I see it differently. Maybe those Harley riders were willing to get a different brand, but seeing as they were still riding their Harleys 15 years into Victory's existence, I don't think Victory wasthe different brand they were willing to get. Most likely they were dissatisfied/disinterested Harley owners who saw Indian as another choice thatwould stillallow them to hold onto their "heritage", thereby allowing them to remain respected by all their Harley riding buddies. I'm sure there are many, many more of them out there that would never be willing to trade in their beloved Harley on "one of them new-fangled, futuristic looking Victory bikes". I think that is exactly the target audience Polaris is chasing after with the Indian brand.

The Harley crew for the most part want a motor that has lots of low end short shift grunt. And they want it without all the drama that comes with a Victory motor.
You can tell the type of rider by the way they react to there first ride on an Indian. And it gets even a bigger reaction if they just got off a Victory.
That type of person always thinks the Indian makes or feels more powerful.
The Indian just feels more powerful (if your a short shift type of person that likes to run in the low RPM range). The Vic on the other hand sounds thrashy and unrefined when it's run low in the RPM.... So most Harley die hards don't like the motor.... But they do like the Indian motor......

My bet is that if Polaris put the 106 in an Indian sales would be poor......
Even if they made the 106 look completely new and put it in the Indian it would be hated by most of the Harley crew....

 

To gain what?
This is the Indian 111 (73/101):

This is a stock Vic 106" (84/97):

This is a stock Vic 100" (75/94):

Really hmmm keep little pony jusy the way it is then...

 

Folks, how about the other way around? Being not-so-enthusiastic about the latest H-D models, I bought a then-new 2003 Indian Chief. Then, suffered through upgrades until it really kicked a** but realized a EVO motor was not for me. After my Gilroy Chief was gone to Alabama with new (and happy) owner Mr. Robin Moore, some time went by and my second big twon arrived as a Victory Vision. So, it's inreverse in my case. Will I buy a 2014 Indian Chief? Yes, when I can afford it, but as a companion to my Victory Vision. BTW, I was a small cog in the machine that was Indian Kings Mountain and eventually became Indian by Polaris. Believe it or not, the tip that led Stellican to Indian and eventually to Kings Mountain came from me...as an aside to another (well connected) businessman while we waited out a thunderstorm in nowhere-ville of China! True, I swear it was me. Ride safe. Shark.

 

If i had the fundage, id be headress wearing canabil! I love my cross roads, but IMO the cheif is hot! They are too similiar to have both in the barn!

 

I think Victory's future is brighter than Indian's. Victory has no rules to follow, just keep improving a great product. I could see a water cooled V4 in a CCT, now that would be great. Indians are well done, but they have a box around them so to speak.

 

I think Victory's future is brighter than Indian's. Victory has no rules to follow, just keep improving a great product. I could see a water cooled V4 in a CCT, now that would be great. Indians are well done, but they have a box around them so to speak.

The Chief certainly does, but Indian in it's roots had a history of innovation. Personally I think Victory is the brand to veer into competing with the likes of BMW but it also would not surprise me to see this lineup from Indian in the years to come: The Chief as it is including the Chieftain Tour. A parallel or v-twin 1200cc Scout. A water cooled four cylinder Four in a sport bike configuration. With versions of those three models I could easily see Indian selling 50k+ motorcycles a year. The Chief will need to stay true to heritage, but a Scout, Spirit, Warrior, Four...they would not have to be an air cooled v-twin, I think. Now if Victory keeps the Cross Country an air cooled v-twin bagger and keeps the Vegas/Judge as a cruiser version, same motor. Bring out a new V-4 water cooled 200hp Vision. Then a 500 and 900cc nekid/standard (think Harley's new bikes) and then coup de ta, a Victory Adventure bike that goes head to head with the BMW 1200GS...then Victory would sell just as many units.

 

The Chief certainly does, but Indian in it's roots had a history of innovation. Personally I think Victory is the brand to veer into competing with the likes of BMW but it also would not surprise me to see this lineup from Indian in the years to come: The Chief as it is including the Chieftain Tour. A parallel or v-twin 1200cc Scout. A water cooled four cylinder Four in a sport bike configuration. With versions of those three models I could easily see Indian selling 50k+ motorcycles a year. The Chief will need to stay true to heritage, but a Scout, Spirit, Warrior, Four...they would not have to be an air cooled v-twin, I think. Now if Victory keeps the Cross Country an air cooled v-twin bagger and keeps the Vegas/Judge as a cruiser version, same motor. Bring out a new V-4 water cooled 200hp Vision. Then a 500 and 900cc nekid/standard (think Harley's new bikes) and then coup de ta, a Victory Adventure bike that goes head to head with the BMW 1200GS...then Victory would sell just as many units.

I don't know, I don't see an indian sportbike coming any time soon. I don't think they can compete in that segment. Look what happened to EBR, and that was a really fine motorcycle. So that is a space I don't think Indian even wants to play in. But I don't think they need to. The Chief family will do well I think for a long time to come. The Scout was a nice effort and could be looked at as that first step "out of the box" that many people want to put Indian in as far as that heritage look and build goes. Now the Dark Horse is coming, which is still basically a Chief, just a nice variation on the theme. The problem with the Chief family is that if you don't fit on one, which I don't, you don't fit on any of them. And I'm not a fan of that "heritage" look either. So Indian in general is not for me.

In my opinion, if anyone should be striking out and bringing new, innovative designs to the market it should be Victory. They have been stagnant for too long now. And I am right with you on that V4 Vision. Man I would love to see that happen. A total re-do is long overdue. That would be just the kind of fresh thinking that Vic needs.