[iabob]

I would plan your big bore for sooner rather than later. Sooner as in the next few years. Even though Lloyd is continuing to sell, and even develop parts, and says he has no plans to quit, there's a business reality in the future that's unavoidable. Without a pipeline of new stock bikes that need upgrading sales will eventually slow. If Lloyd is only selling two or three Vic big bore kits a year how long do you expect him to keep offering them?

Of course the flip side of this is later rather than sooner somebody,Witchdoctors maybe?, is going to make a buck stocking up on otherwise hard to find parts. So my plans are to do whatever the F I feel like doing whenever the F I feel like doing it. If my bike breaks I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. If for some reason it can't be fixed it becomes a rec room trophy and I go buy a different bike. Or a boat. Or a Vegas suite full of hookers, I don't know, whatever the F I feel like then

 

[iabob]

Victory spent its first four years “blending in”. That doesn’t work. What Victory did from 2003 to 2012 did work. Marketing wasn’t the problem. Had they just stayed the course Victory alone would be at or above where Indian alone is now. The bottom line is Victory’s success did not come at the expense of Harley and Wine/Menneto have such a boner for Harley that they are trying to accomplish with Indian what they couldn’t with Victory and that is be more Harley than Harley. It ain’t going to happen.

 

[iabob]

The promise of parts for ten years was a lie. Unless you count oil and spark plugs. Maybe. What you need to keep in mind is that the boneheads running Polaris don't want our Victories on the road. They want them dead, gone, and forgotten. Remember, they think bikers are stupid. They think we will believe their marketing hype about new paint and wheels equals all new ground breaking models. They think we will all fall for their bs and think, "Well golly gee they gave it a go with Victory but there just wasn't enough demand. It was just a business decision...Oh my look at that shiny new 30k dollar Chieftain Elite Mega! OMG it has a 21" wheel! How freaking badass! Where do I sign?"

That is what Polaris' CEO and VP of motorcycles thinks of us. The ten year lie was to make Harley guys feel more comfortable about buying an Indian. If they believe Victory rider wasn't taken for granted then they won't worry about them falling into the same trap buying an Indian.

And NO, there is no law that they have to keep parts available. That is an Internet myth. They have to honor the 12 month factory warranty (not the 5yr extended service contract), that is all they're legally obligated to do.

 

[iabob]

I have used my warranty 3 times after the factory warranty. But I have a reputable dealer that takes care of its customers. I brought the extended issue up with my dealer. They told me it's a binding contract and will be covered. But if there is ever an issue the owner of the dealership personally told me it will be honered by them.

It is a binding contract, but not with Polaris. Polaris acts as a selling agent to a third party, or themselves set up that third party. As long as what you need can still be sourced everything is fine. Should the part needed for repair not be available there is typically language in the contract that the vendor can fulfill its obligation with a cash payout in lieu of repair. Point being Polaris is no longer on the hook once the original 12, sometimes 24 month factory warranty has expired. They're under no legal obligation to keeps parts available.

 

[iabob]

Well just be prepared. Every time this topic comes up, people who wish to engage in conversation get accused of beating a dead horse and not getting over. They can screw off for all I care, I engage in topics I want to and ignore those I don't.

SO...as I see it the reason why is incompetent management. I base this assessment on some undisputed facts. Victory first turned a full year profit in 2006 and it grew every year except for 1 recession year up to its best year in 2012. In the 2010-2012 time frame it was growing at 15-20% a year. This coincides with the release of the Cross models which are undeniably good selling models. At this time Polaris R&D was working on lots of new tech like electric windshields for a fork mounted fairing, keyless ignition, remote locks, touchscreen infotainment. In addition their subsidiary in Europe was busy developing a lighter weight water cooled mid sized model. But management decided not to use any of this in their popular and growing brand. They intentionally withheld it from one brand, to buy it in their new brand, which competes in the same market. So they developed the tech riders want, but stacked the deck keeping it away from Victory. So it's no surprise that Victory sales flattened out when the very company that owns Victory created a new competitor for it AND better outfitted that competitor. What's amazing is that Victory sales didn't fall further faster than they did.

In case that doesn't scream "incompetent management" loud enough consider this: Victory was growing 10-20%. Had the Cross Country been updated in 2013 like it could have been, had the Octane been released in 2014 like it could have been, had Polaris not spent a bunch of money squiring Indian like it could have been...I don't think it's a stretch at all to say at the very least Victory would have maintained its growth trajectory, possibly even accelerated it beyond 20%. In which case if you grow 2012 Vic sales by that trajectory Polaris would be ahead of where they are today after spending all that money on Indian!

Just an exclamation point on incompetence. Polaris brass tried to justify the closure by claiming Victory lost 100 million dollars over its life span. This after they spent almost 50 million dollars on Brammo and selling a handful of them with Victory stickers. They spent over 30 million dollars on a paint booth plant expansion...that didn't work because they cut corners on the curing chamber. They spent millions more expanding the R&D facility, but all the additional production, none of it went into Victory. And they spent millions more on Swiss Auto, but again, moved its products over to Indian. Hmmm, we're talking about a cumulative total of more than 100 million dollars here aren't we? So they spent a whole bunch of money and a whole lot of IP resources to get to a sales level that's less today than it would have been had they just stayed the course and continued to develop Victory. That's the genius running Indian Motorcycles right now.

 

[iabob]

Where'd you get this bit of information? ? It's a bit inaccurate.

I got it from PII stock reports. If it is inaccurate that would be an SEC violation.

 

[iabob]

I don’t think advertising was the problem. As I see it the Cross platform WAS selling well. Victory had several years of impressive sales growth and was profitable. Of course people like new and improved and wanted things like electric windshields, remote start, key fob locking bags, touchscreen infotainment, etc. Polaris spent the money to develop all of that stuff, and some douchebag made the executive decision to NOT put it in his best selling model. The result, people did start buying the model that did get it. Golly gee imagine that. Times are changing and people want new, different, and stylish. Polaris brass screwed the pooch trying to insure their new pet project was a success even at the expense of their true heritage. They sold out and that always comes with a cost.

 

[iabob]

They are gone.....forever! Let it go

Gone forever? Then what's the thing in my garage that looks just like a Victory Kingpin? Imagine if after 1953 people just said Indian is gone forever, let it go.

 

[iabob]

Every Indian made after the original company went out of business is a fake Indian, is it not ?. Polanus could go wild with the Indian in some models, because no one knows what Indian would look like today if the original company still existed. Like I said bring out a water cooled inline 4 fixed fairing modern styled tour bike in a couple different packages, swing for the fences or bunt !. I probably could not afford it anyway if they did LOL.

What you say would be true except Polaris is responsible for it not. They painted themselves into this corner of "Indian since 1901 Heritage" They made that paint permanent with the way they closed Victory. They poisoned the well of styling that breaks away from original Indian designs. Because of what they did, if they came out with a modern styled fixed fairing Indian people will call it the rebadged version of the second gen Vision, whichnis probably truth. Polarass can't venture into new territory with Indian because Polarass said such things were losers. They shot themselves in the foot.

 

[iabob]

Well I was looking at the 18 HD and Indians. But I am way to upside down on my bike. Best offer I got was 13 for it. But I have been having problems with it since I got it. Last year the pistons cracked and had to be replaced (polaris paid most of it). Just want to get rid of it, been a thorn in my side since the purchase

I don't know if this helps or not but...In the first few years I owned my Kingpin, I had a porous front cylinder head leaking oil, a fuel pump that took a crap, and voltage regulator that left me stranded in the middle of Nebraska, broken clutch cable, and a leaky front master cylinder. Probably some other stuff I've forgotten. If a man made it, I can break it. Went through the same thing you are, tried to trade it, tried to sell it but upside down at the time. And, each time something broke and I got pissed...everything else I went to go look at I didn't like as well as my own bike. If only it wasn't a lemon. So I fixed instead of replaced, hoping that this would be the last time. Eventually it was. I still have that bike, it's better than it was new, and it's been rock solid for around eight or nine years or more now.

 

[iabob]

If I were to trade my Victory in on an Indian they would have to give me around 20-30 grand. But to be nice to them they could keep the Indian and I’d just take the money to go buy a Harley.

 

[iabob]

Keep them Harleys I rode the new RG and Ultra still to top heavy still ride like $hit Vic and Indian still out do them in both fields all day.

Meh, I've ridden the Indians and Harley's too. I can't think of a single area where the Indian is better than the new Harley's. The Vic's are still a more comfortable and better handling bike, but between the two surviving brands I'll take the Harley every time. Bonus it's an original not a wannabe. Double bonus, it's not made by Polarass. Triple bonus, you can get good power out of an M8.

 

[iabob]

Lmao it's a good thing your not mad at Polaris if indian was 10x the bike you'd never admit

Oh I would admit it, I already have on many occasions. My hatred towards Polaris isn't because the bikes suck, they don't. I personally don't like them as well as Vic's, but that's not saying they suck. If you like yours, great! Doesn't change the fact that the brass at Polaris have proven themselves untrustworthy which is why I will not do any further business with them.

What I AM saying here is that Harley doesn't suck either. That wasn't always true. But it is now. Yes, I have ridden several newer Harley's and I don't see Indians as better in any category. Not in power, not in comfort, not in handling. So far the only bike I felt I had to keep my hands on while straddling it standing still was a Boss Hoss. Even then, so what. I don't buy a bike to stand over, I buy it to ride and the newer Harley's ride as good or better than Polaris-Indians. The fact that they're now copying Harley right down to the batwing fairing with the vent and squared off saddle bags does give me the taste of puke in the back of my mouth though. So sad to see a company that at one time created such unique and beautiful designs do a cut and run to go full bore copycat. But like I said, if you're into it by all means enjoy it. They ride pretty much exactly the same as Harley's.

 

[iabob]

@iabob lol well I agree with you on 1 thing the Chief Glide is a definite kopykat. But there are many so they assume like that style but are done with the Harley drivetrain. Hopefully the oil system is getting better as time goes on. But from what I've seen and ridden myself. They are still but a descent down the middle of the road bike. Now I can tell you this and it mite be remedied now. A Partner of mine did the 114 upgrade on his 17 and when they pulled it down with 5000 miles on it. The pistons looked as if they had 50,000 on them. But we will continue to disagree I'm good with that. But from spending time on both suspension and handling in itself Harleys way behind. But hey I'm gonna but mine thru it's paces shortly for the first time leaving on the 28th back on the 12th for a west coast 6000 mile trip. The 2 weeks later an East coast run. And that will give me a much better idea of how this bike shakes out. As I've said so far so good. But I bought it at the end of the season and only have 4g on it. It may not be what I hope it is but for as hard as I ride I'm gonna find out.

The Chief Glide and have you seen the "spy" pics of the upcoming Indian Road Glide? I think Harley could sue its such a copy. Anyway, part of my indifference is while baggers are fine motorcycles, they just aren't what excites me. Sportys and Scouts are also fine bikes, but too small for me. So let's compare the new Softail lineup to a Chief Classic or Vintage...show me a Street or Fat Bob with a few small mods and that's a bike I'm interested in. Of course as long as I have my Pin I'm not interested enough to buy one, but you get the point.

 

[iabob]

So it’s been three years now. Yep, Polaris can still lick my balls. I also add anyone who thinks I need to get over it to the list of those who can lick my balls

 

[iabob]

Hate to be the one to break it to you, but you probably have a better chance of licking your own balls. Just saying...

If you hate to be the one to break it to me, then why did you do what you hate to do? And thanks for establishing that you're just saying what you just said.

FWIW if I could lick my own balls, I wouldn't be online posting here.

 

[iabob]

Sure you can, I just bought 4 kits off of Amazon. I got two of the kits for $56 because the boxes had some damage and were repaired with packing tape. I wish I had bought 20 kits back when they were blowing them out instead of just 8.

I thought about doing just that, but then I thought, "screw that company, they can lick my balls". So I spent the money on a K&P reusable filter instead (and it's really cool too) and now I just buy Spector or amsoil or lots of other choices.

Oil thread ACTIVATE! Lol.

 

[iabob]

Well it’s been four years today. Not a single dollar of mine has gone to Polaris and they can still lick my balls.

 

[iabob]

Besides Wino ..... who else is gone ? Steve Menetto ? Mike Song ?

Mennetto was moved to four wheelers or something else, Wine resigned to work for Cat or something like that. Good riddance to both.

 

[iabob]

If they don't bring back Victory and they won't ...... I just hope they build something from Indian that can run with the cross bikes. Like the Chieftain stretch with a Challenger motor. I'd be at least interested but I doubt I'd buy one. I keep looking at the Challenger and no matter how much I want to like it I just can't. I can't because it's trying to be a better Road Glide. It doesn't have its own identity. To me it will always be a copy of an RG. Even though it's better. Same for the new designed Chieftain. A SG copy imo. This is why I say it's the power plant that can make the difference in many cases. Putting the 116 TS in there helped. The Challenger motor would make it something even better. Change the old car looking dash. Integrated turn signals like the original Chieftain fairing. Fat front tire or a 21" like the Magnum had. Just make it it's own bike. Just ask the people especially Vic riders. As dedicated as they are would you not listen to them. They kept your brand thru all this change and won't let go of it. Talk to them ! Then hand them a discount voucher for their participation for screwing them and all their friends and dealers and after market go to's.

I'll take mine in Black or Silver please. Blacked out wheels and motor. Keep it under $23k

I'll take one as soon as Harley builds it. Or anyone else, except Indian. In the meantime I really don't need it. I can put bags and a windshield on my 2007 Victory Kingpin and run circles around a Chieftain or Challenger, and go anywhere in the country. If I buy another bike it won't be something that does what the Kingpin does. It could be something with superior passenger comfort like a Goldwing, K1600, or a used Vision. Or it could be something like a dual-sport ADV type bike that I can take off-road. Or it could be something like an electric sport-commuter bike. No real need for a big cruiser. But if I did it would be a Harley, never Indian.