[FlNativeJoe]

If were going to buy one of the two would be the Base Challenger at 22K .. While I am not fond of the way Polaris dropped Victory I don't hate them so bad that refuse to buy anything from them if think worth buying .. Totally enjoyed riding my son's Turbo powered RZR through the Arkansas Trails .. He has owned a bunch of them and said without question this one was top Dog of them all ..

 

[Redmule]

Business is business and what we forget is Vic really didn't sell well because it wasn't a harley. Same way harley dropped buell, the only difference is harley riders didn't care much for buell. Harley has boxed themselves into a corner, it's hard for them to evolve because the cool aid crowd only buy what harley has brainwashed them to buy so now anything new beyond their traditional air cooled motors don't sell. Their new 975 Street fighter engine is a trial balloon for their new big twin engines in the future. Unfortunately they better get their ass in gear because the crowd buying their bikes are soon moving to wheel chairs.

Indian regardless has beat harley to the punch, if you are a serious long distance rider, water cooling is the way to go for the last 40 years except at harley. At this point for me what is important is comfort for long distance and trouble free/low maintenance bike, don't care about the brand.

 

[iabob]

Business is business and what we forget is Vic really didn't sell well because it wasn't a harley. Same way harley dropped buell, the only difference is harley riders didn't care much for buell. Harley has boxed themselves into a corner, it's hard for them to evolve because the cool aid crowd only buy what harley has brainwashed them to buy so now anything new beyond their traditional air cooled motors don't sell. Their new 975 Street fighter engine is a trial balloon for their new big twin engines in the future. Unfortunately they better get their ass in gear because the crowd buying their bikes are soon moving to wheel chairs.

Indian regardless has beat harley to the punch, if you are a serious long distance rider, water cooling is the way to go for the last 40 years except at harley. At this point for me what is important is comfort for long distance and trouble free/low maintenance bike, don't care about the brand.

And the lie persists. Yeah, business is business and the truth is Victory was selling well before bad business ran it into the ground. There is such a thing as a bad business decision.

 

[Half_Crazy]

And the lie persists. Yeah, business is business and the truth is Victory was selling well before bad business ran it into the ground. There is such a thing as a bad business decision.

Yes... and you don't have to compete with yourself. Victory = modern performance. Indian = nostalgia look w/ modern features.
Does the Corvette compete with the Camaro? No, they get BOTH buyers... the guy who won't buy a Vette because it's impractical buys the Camaro.
Does the Challenger compete with the Charger? No, they get BOTH buyers.... The guy who wants a Challenger but needs a 4-door car buys the Charger.
No reason why Victory and Indian can't be structured the same way.

Indian has a flat-track racing team... Victory HAD a drag racing team... you see where this is going.

 

[Redmule]

And the lie persists. Yeah, business is business and the truth is Victory was selling well before bad business ran it into the ground. There is such a thing as a bad business decision.

Depending where you look, 125,000 bikes sold over 18 years, 125,000 bikes is what honda sells in a couple days, Victory was booming!!

 

[slickvic]

Yes... and you don't have to compete with yourself. Victory = modern performance. Indian = nostalgia look w/ modern features.
Does the Corvette compete with the Camaro? No, they get BOTH buyers... the guy who won't buy a Vette because it's impractical buys the Camaro.
Does the Challenger compete with the Charger? No, they get BOTH buyers.... The guy who wants a Challenger but needs a 4-door car buys the Charger.
No reason why Victory and Indian can't be structured the same way.

Indian has a flat-track racing team... Victory HAD a drag racing team... you see where this is going.

I've said this all along. We're all starting to sound like broken records. That's what should of happened and what was supposed to happen ! Remember : " there's now choice in American Motorcycles "
In there minds the brands were competing with one another. No one in the sales dept stepped up and did any thing said anything : They couldn't market Victory like they thought. The $$$$$ needed to go to Indian development. They must have lost plenty on Victory. They haven't made a profit since 2014 according to Scott Wine.
Ok so it's now going on to the 3rd year. We're still booty hurt but we're here talking about the new Challenger as if it were a Victory.
We forget We're victory owners ? If this were in fact a Victory who would trade their XC ,XCT, Magnum, Vision for one ?
Not me ..... not today.

 

[iabob]

Depending where you look, 125,000 bikes sold over 18 years, 125,000 bikes is what honda sells in a couple days, Victory was booming!!

Not depending on where you look, depending on how you spin. 1999-2007 Victory was a very different motorcycle company than they were 2008-2014. They were profitable in 2006. From there to 2012 sales grew every year. In 2010, 2011, 2012 sales were growing at 60-80%. Victory was running two shifts on their line at capacity. Yes, they were doing very well. On the other hand, without Victory Polaris' motorcycle division has never had a year over year increase in sales, Indian has never generated a profit. That's what you call running a company into the ground.

 

[Redmule]

Not depending on where you look, depending on how you spin. 1999-2007 Victory was a very different motorcycle company than they were 2008-2014. They were profitable in 2006. From there to 2012 sales grew every year. In 2010, 2011, 2012 sales were growing at 60-80%. Victory was running two shifts on their line at capacity. Yes, they were doing very well. On the other hand, without Victory Polaris' motorcycle division has never had a year over year increase in sales, Indian has never generated a profit. That's what you call running a company into the ground.

Well then ran out and buy a challenger by all accounts it's just a Victory rebranded. Who cares what it name is on the tank. You can still help save "Victory".

 

[iabob]

Well then ran out and buy a challenger by all accounts it's just a Victory rebranded. Who cares what it name is on the tank.

Because you now appear to acknowledge that Victory's demise was not due to poor sales performance but rather due to bad management you think I should now go out and buy another bike from a company run by the same bad managers? I'm not seeing the logic in that.

 

[Half_Crazy]

I've said this all along. We're all starting to sound like broken records. That's what should of happened and what was supposed to happen ! Remember : " there's now choice in American Motorcycles "
In there minds the brands were competing with one another. No one in the sales dept stepped up and did any thing said anything : They couldn't market Victory like they thought. The $$$$$ needed to go to Indian development. They must have lost plenty on Victory. They haven't made a profit since 2014 according to Scott Wine.
Ok so it's now going on to the 3rd year. We're still booty hurt but we're here talking about the new Challenger as if it were a Victory.
We forget We're victory owners ? If this were in fact a Victory who would trade their XC ,XCT, Magnum, Vision for one ?
Not me ..... not today.

No one is butt-hurt... That's bullsh!t. People like Bob and I don't trust Polaris (and for good reason). That's not butt-hurt, it's just common sense. If Indian is not profitable (if the Challenger doesn't save the day) how long will Polaris keep the motorcycle division alive? It's a legitimate concern, not a butt-hurt response.

If Victory stopped being profitable it was due to the management decisions made, not the failure of the brand overall. When you stop making incremental improvements and dump all the new tech and features you have been working on into another brand, of course the sales will fall off. No surprise there. Polaris put all the eggs in one basket... Indian... the success of which will be a product of the same management team who orchestrated the demise of the Victory brand. You'll have to excuse me for not trusting them...

 

[Redmule]

Because you now appear to acknowledge that Victory's demise was not due to poor sales performance but rather due to bad management you think I should now go out and buy another bike from a company run by the same bad managers? I'm not seeing the logic in that.

I agree management has a lot to do with the bottom line in a company but if you have a product that "everyone" wants/must own then it sells itself regardless of management. Victory never even came close to achieving that and with "Indian" back on the market why would you keep making a product that sold a few thousand units a year?

Polaris has many eggs in a lot of baskets, Indian is just one of them. I see nobody having a problem with harley having all their eggs in one basket, actually Harley is branding company that sells motorcycles on the side, these guys would put their name on a pile of sh1t if it sold, they don't give a crap about motorcycles.

 

[slickvic]

No one is butt-hurt... That's bullsh!t. People like Bob and I don't trust Polaris (and for good reason). That's not butt-hurt, it's just common sense. If Indian is not profitable (if the Challenger doesn't save the day) how long will Polaris keep the motorcycle division alive? It's a legitimate concern, not a butt-hurt response.

If Victory stopped being profitable it was due to the management decisions made, not the failure of the brand overall. When you stop making incremental improvements and dump all the new tech and features you have been working on into another brand, of course the sales will fall off. No surprise there. Polaris put all the eggs in one basket... Indian... the success of which will be a product of the same management team who orchestrated the demise of the Victory brand. You'll have to excuse me for not trusting them...

I was not directing the butt hurt comment to you or Bob. Sorry if I came out that way. I'll choose better words. In general everyone that owns and loves their Victory is somewhat dis-pleased with Polaris. Some have gotten passed it and some will never. I understand people.
I would like to think that Polaris May have learned from that mistake and to me it was a mistake. Hearing thru the grapevine of Indian dealers the comment was just that. They did it can't take it back and their moving on.
The new dealerships and the new way of doing business regarding the showrooms and the advertising with Indian has shown exactly that.
If they fail then they fail. This time it won't be because they didn't try. I can only think Harley Davidson has that much of a following or the new rider today just isn't buying motorcycles.

I am for the jobs that have been created because of Indian motorcycles I am for the service facilities and dealerships that are available now with Indian Motorcycles to help those on the road with problems with their new bikes. So what if they're like Harley Davidson in that respect. It's needed. Loyd Greer jumped in. Obviously he's trusting that they got it right this time. I think it will be sad for many that won't even look at a machine that is built as good as these are because of the past.

 

[Half_Crazy]

If they fail then they fail.

If you had just plunked down $23K for a new Indian you may feel differently.

Lloyd Greer jumped in. Obviously he's trusting that they got it right this time. I think it will be sad for many that won't even look at a machine that is built as good as these are because of the past.

The past is not the concern... the uncertain future is... and the distrust for Polaris execs is. Not living in the rearview mirror, just being understandably cautious toward those who decide the future of the motorcycle division at Polaris.

 

[slickvic]

If you had just plunked down $23K for a new Indian you may feel differently.

The past is not the concern... the uncertain future is... and the distrust for Polaris execs is. Not living in the rearview mirror, just being understandably cautious toward those who decide the future of the motorcycle division at Polaris.

This I can understand. The caution. I have that same feeling. Exactly why I bought a Magnum and not a Chieftain. I wanted one but wasn't spending that kind of money.

Its not the comments of caution doing business with this company. It's the bashing that follows someone's positive comment about the bike.
The comments like " your crazy or your stupid or why would you "
No need for the constant warning about Polaris
I think I'm not the only one that feels this way.

Wondering though ...... Harley's future.

 

[iabob]

I was directing the butt hurt comment to you or Bob. Sorry if I came out that way. I'll choose better words. In general everyone that owns and loves their Victory is somewhat dis-pleased with Polaris. Some have gotten passed it and some will never. I understand people.
I would like to think that Polaris May have learned from that mistake and to me it was a mistake. Hearing thru the grapevine of Indian dealers the comment was just that. They did it can't take it back and their moving on.
The new dealerships and the new way of doing business regarding the showrooms and the advertising with Indian has shown exactly that.
If they fail then they fail. This time it won't be because they didn't try. I can only think Harley Davidson has that much of a following or the new rider today just isn't buying motorcycles.

I am for the jobs that have been created because of Indian motorcycles I am for the service facilities and dealerships that are available now with Indian Motorcycles to help those on the road with problems with their new bikes. So what if they're like Harley Davidson in that respect. It's needed. Loyd Greer jumped in. Obviously he's trusting that they got it right this time. I think it will be sad for many that won't even look at a machine that is built as good as these are because of the past.

I have no problem admitting I hold a grudge. I think that makes me honest. If someone prefers to call holding a grudge as being butt hurt...fine by me.

As I think I alluded to early, I did a lot more than just buy a motorcycle. I helped form and grow a local chapter of the Victory Motorcycle Club. I organized rides, holiday parties, breakfast gatherings all centered around the Central Iowa Victory Riders. We volunteered to lead demo rides during demo truck events. This kind of activity, local riding group, made the purchase of a Victory motorcycle more attractive. I'm certain this was a helping factor selling bikes around here because our new members said as much. But it doesn't stop there. We also coordinated with the factory, again volunteering my time to host or help with national events like the American Victory Rally's in Spirit Lake. I think "brand ambassador" is a fitting label. Polaris never would have got to where they are today without the efforts of people like me. I have a right to be pissed off and I make no apologies for exercising my rights.

Where I do wish to make a distinction though is, not from you but multiple others over the years, that I just refuse to consider an Indian because I'm butt hurt and haven't "gotten over it". No, that is not the only reason. I am also fully capable of having multiple reasons for my decisions. Other reasons include not trusting the business decisions of the management at Indian. I think Indian's are ugly. I think they're too closely copying Harley and I like Harley so I'd just buy Harley. I'm not into retro. I find the 1901 claims phony and distasteful. And so on.

So yeah, I hold a grudge because Polaris turned its back on me after I helped them become a success. They deserve to go Fuk themselves after that. And yes, there are many other reasons in addition to that that have nothing to do with butt hurt feelings that leaves me with no desire to buy an Indian.

 

[Teflon Mike]

I have no problem admitting I hold a grudge. I think that makes me honest. If someone prefers to call holding a grudge as being butt hurt...fine by me.

As I think I alluded to early, I did a lot more than just buy a motorcycle. I helped form and grow a local chapter of the Victory Motorcycle Club. I organized rides, holiday parties, breakfast gatherings all centered around the Central Iowa Victory Riders. We volunteered to lead demo rides during demo truck events. This kind of activity, local riding group, made the purchase of a Victory motorcycle more attractive. I'm certain this was a helping factor selling bikes around here because our new members said as much. But it doesn't stop there. We also coordinated with the factory, again volunteering my time to host or help with national events like the American Victory Rally's in Spirit Lake. I think "brand ambassador" is a fitting label. Polaris never would have got to where they are today without the efforts of people like me. I have a right to be pissed off and I make no apologies for exercising my rights.

Where I do wish to make a distinction though is, not from you but multiple others over the years, that I just refuse to consider an Indian because I'm butt hurt and haven't "gotten over it". No, that is not the only reason. I am also fully capable of having multiple reasons for my decisions. Other reasons include not trusting the business decisions of the management at Indian. I think Indian's are ugly. I think they're too closely copying Harley and I like Harley so I'd just buy Harley. I'm not into retro. I find the 1901 claims phony and distasteful. And so on.

So yeah, I hold a grudge because Polaris turned its back on me after I helped them become a success. They deserve to go Fuk themselves after that. And yes, there are many other reasons in addition to that that have nothing to do with butt hurt feelings that leaves me with no desire to buy an Indian.

Don't get over it then. Stay mad forever. But does every single topic really need to devolve into talking about Scott wine or polaris brass and their bad decisions? In no time at all this thread went from comparing two motorcycles that are trying to capture a certain demographic, to Scott wine turned his back on us. This along with a hundred other threads. At what point is it ok to going back to talking about motorcycles?

 

[iabob]

Don't get over it then. Stay mad forever. But does every single topic really need to devolve into talking about Scott wine or polaris brass and their bad decisions? In no time at all this thread went from comparing two motorcycles that are trying to capture a certain demographic, to Scott wine turned his back on us. This along with a hundred other threads. At what point is it ok to going back to talking about motorcycles?

Well, there are 35 threads on the first page of "active topics". I might be participating in half a dozen of them. In the rest of them, as with this one I talked about motorcycles. I talked about liking the Road Glide and the Goldwing and the K1600. Somebody else posted false information so I offered more accurate information. I followed the thread where it went, in this one out of 35 threads. I will continue to do so as long as one of the very few threads that I participate in goes there. If that bothers you, you can either get over it, or stay mad forever. Your choice, I won't judge you for either.

 

[Chattanooga_Mark]

I have no problem admitting I hold a grudge. I think that makes me honest. If someone prefers to call holding a grudge as being butt hurt...fine by me.

As I think I alluded to early, I did a lot more than just buy a motorcycle. I helped form and grow a local chapter of the Victory Motorcycle Club. I organized rides, holiday parties, breakfast gatherings all centered around the Central Iowa Victory Riders. We volunteered to lead demo rides during demo truck events. This kind of activity, local riding group, made the purchase of a Victory motorcycle more attractive. I'm certain this was a helping factor selling bikes around here because our new members said as much. But it doesn't stop there. We also coordinated with the factory, again volunteering my time to host or help with national events like the American Victory Rally's in Spirit Lake. I think "brand ambassador" is a fitting label. Polaris never would have got to where they are today without the efforts of people like me. I have a right to be pissed off and I make no apologies for exercising my rights.

Where I do wish to make a distinction though is, not from you but multiple others over the years, that I just refuse to consider an Indian because I'm butt hurt and haven't "gotten over it". No, that is not the only reason. I am also fully capable of having multiple reasons for my decisions. Other reasons include not trusting the business decisions of the management at Indian. I think Indian's are ugly. I think they're too closely copying Harley and I like Harley so I'd just buy Harley. I'm not into retro. I find the 1901 claims phony and distasteful. And so on.

So yeah, I hold a grudge because Polaris turned its back on me after I helped them become a success. They deserve to go Fuk themselves after that. And yes, there are many other reasons in addition to that that have nothing to do with butt hurt feelings that leaves me with no desire to buy an Indian.

Butt hurt and/or the pretty home coming queen married someone else both seem to come pretty close.

Hopefully you don't feel the same about other things like a Studebaker, a Pontiac or a Saturn.
My old 486 driven computer was one of the most solid ones I had at the time. Yea, those creeps don't make those any longer either.

Enjoy and love your Victory as much as ever. That's what I'm doing and it feels great.

 

[Teflon Mike]

Well, there are 35 threads on the first page of "active topics". I might be participating in half a dozen of them. In the rest of them, as with this one I talked about motorcycles. I talked about liking the Road Glide and the Goldwing and the K1600. Somebody else posted false information so I offered more accurate information. I followed the thread where it went, in this one out of 35 threads. I will continue to do so as long as one of the very few threads that I participate in goes there. If that bothers you, you can either get over it, or stay mad forever. Your choice, I won't judge you for either.

You're not correcting anyone. You're venting. It is slightly bothersome, but I will get over it. You're free to do as you please. However I think people like @slickvic want to come here to express their opinion, and on this bike along with other Indians that appeal to him or others, they cannot do so without hearing from multiple people what a bad person he now is or anyone that likes what this bike has to offer. I'm all for getting behind and promoting someone to go for whatever it is that makes them happy as long as it doesn't hurt anyone in the process. Of course I'm going to back him up. I like @slickvic . If he wanted to buy a triumph or Honda, he'll get nothing but support from me.

I read on the indian forum the other day, that one member just scored a good deal on a lightly used indian. You know what the circumstances were? Nothing was wrong with the bike. He couldn't have an indian In his garage and went back to harley. Really? People gotta bust his chops so bad that they can't buy a bike that they like without ridicule? I can't get behind that. I think the guy was weak for getting rid of it and if it bothered me that much, I'd have gotten rid of mine a long time ago. But if I ever ride with @slickvic , regardless of what he's riding, he might get some friendly oil banter or something, but beyond that I don't think it's called for.

 

[iabob]

Butt hurt and/or the pretty home coming queen married someone else both seem to come pretty close.

Hopefully you don't feel the same about other things like a Studebaker, a Pontiac or a Saturn.
My old 486 driven computer was one of the most solid ones I had at the time. Yea, those creeps don't make those any longer either.

Enjoy and love your Victory as much as ever. That's what I'm doing and it feels great.

Nope, I don't feel the sameabout a computer or a car I never owned. I am enjoying my Vic more than ever, and I agree it feels great.