Nope. Find me one guy who regrets getting cams and that'll be a first.

See post 12 and post 20.

 

I am one of those guys that isn't totally happy with PC V , wheel, and cams. Bike had stage 1 Lloyd's hi flo and then the rest was done . Lots of pre ignition below 3000rpm . I am sure we get it solved . If you like chugging through town at 2500 rpm right now this is not working for me. The reply is just to maybe give some idea about how this work affected my bike some guys like buzzing through town at 3000 and some don't . The other reason I replied is we are on a trans US/ CANADA trek are in the Gaspe region Que. and heading back home in BC. Need tires done in the next bit , Quebec or Ontario. Not wanting to go into the big smoke too far asI am a country boy!! Any ideas about good shops would be appreciated. Oh running Avon Cobras 15000klms not wore out yet but have to start looking. Thanks Lyle

 

See post 12 and post 20.

Post # 12: a guy who is making false statements in this thread supposedly "knows a guy". Hardly trustworthy. Post # 20 a Guy who probably wouldn't spend the money over again. Did not find the BENEFIT worth the dollars spent. Hardly a rejection of the performance of the cam. What I said, "The next time I hear a guy regretting them will be the first time." Are YOU really trying to say I have heard people tell me previous to this thread that they regret putting cams in???

 

I am one of those guys that isn't totally happy with PC V , wheel, and cams. Bike had stage 1 Lloyd's hi flo and then the rest was done . Lots of pre ignition below 3000rpm . I am sure we get it solved . If you like chugging through town at 2500 rpm right now this is not working for me. The reply is just to maybe give some idea about how this work affected my bike some guys like buzzing through town at 3000 and some don't . The other reason I replied is we are on a trans US/ CANADA trek are in the Gaspe region Que. and heading back home in BC. Need tires done in the next bit , Quebec or Ontario. Not wanting to go into the big smoke too far asI am a country boy!! Any ideas about good shops would be appreciated. Oh running Avon Cobras 15000klms not wore out yet but have to start looking. Thanks Lyle

If you're near the east coast look up Kyle (KMC Powersports) or Lloyd ( Lloyd's Motorworkz ). Pre-ignition is probably a timing issue, if it's only happening below 3000 my guess is the timing on the PC-V is set well but there's too much advance from the wheel. A phone call to those guys would probably give you a suggestion at where to set it to correct the problem.

 

Now you've obviously gone off the deep end!! How does 20 years in the International Dragon Boat Association (IDBA) help this argument? Just asking now, since you are a Drag Bike guy, but don't CAMs have Lift and Duration, and doesn't this not only, "move the torque produced to a different part of the RPM's," as you said but increase overall TQ? AND, if engineered correctly flatten the torque curve to provide a broader range? KG

wow another well thought out articulate answer. Let me explain it to you slowly. A higher lift cam opens the valves further. If the duration is no longer (time both the valves are open) then torque in the lower rev range normally pickes up. Now open your mind and ponder this: If the valve has more life and the duration remains the same what does that tell you about the angle of the profile of the cam? It becomes steeper. With me on thatDragon Boat Queen? (just using your poor judgement of humor). Duration, or when both valves are open at the same time lowers cranking pressures in low rpm conditions... with me on this Byron Hines? That, through the laws of physics, lowers cranking pressure. Hang in there. Lower cranking pressure meansa lowereffective compression ratio.Torque is the twising force of the crankshaft as the piston pushes down on the connecting rod spinning the crankshaft. Lower effective compression ration by the overlap at low rpm's diminishes torque. Clear?

Ever seen the compression ratio on a pro stock car? 14.5 to 15.5 to 1. the camshafts of these cars are so wild(huge lift and zip codelong duration that they need that high of a compression ratio just so they have enough effectivecranking pressure to rev the car up to 10,000rpms to stablize the engine.

Now to eleviate this car manufactures havego to a "variable" valve timingengine where until a certain RPM the 4valve head only opens up two of the valves thereby reducing effective loss of cranking pressure due to a high lift longer duration cam for that car. Victory's don't have the variable valve head so compromises have to be made. Yes your statement of "engineered correctly toflatten the torquecurve" is true. But flattening the torque curve interpreted correctly would be that the torque is constant like a table top through the widest possible RPM range. 100lbs ft at 2,000 RPMs and 100lbs ft at 4500RPMS. That's not what these aftermarket cams actually do. They do provide a boost in torque values in the midrange and higher rev range. Now if youadded higher compression pistions or a 116 inch motor that those losses wouldn't occur.

 

wow another well thought out articulate answer. Let me explain it to you slowly. A higher lift cam opens the valves further. If the duration is no longer (time both the valves are open) then torque in the lower rev range normally pickes up. Now open your mind and ponder this: If the valve has more life and the duration remains the same what does that tell you about the angle of the profile of the cam? It becomes steeper. With me on thatDragon Boat Queen? (just using your poor judgement of humor). Duration, or when both valves are open at the same time lowers cranking pressures in low rpm conditions... with me on this Byron Hines? That, through the laws of physics, lowers cranking pressure. Hang in there. Lower cranking pressure meansa lowereffective compression ratio.Torque is the twising force of the crankshaft as the piston pushes down on the connecting rod spinning the crankshaft. Lower effective compression ration by the overlap at low rpm's diminishes torque. Clear?

Ever seen the compression ratio on a pro stock car? 14.5 to 15.5 to 1. the camshafts of these cars are so wild(huge lift and zip codelong duration that they need that high of a compression ratio just so they have enough effectivecranking pressure to rev the car up to 10,000rpms to stablize the engine.

Now to eleviate this car manufactures havego to a "variable" valve timingengine where until a certain RPM the 4valve head only opens up two of the valves thereby reducing effective loss of cranking pressure due to a high lift longer duration cam for that car. Victory's don't have the variable valve head so compromises have to be made. Yes your statement of "engineered correctly toflatten the torquecurve" is true. But flattening the torque curve interpreted correctly would be that the torque is constant like a table top through the widest possible RPM range. 100lbs ft at 2,000 RPMs and 100lbs ft at 4500RPMS. That's not what these aftermarket cams actually do. They do provide a boost in torque values in the midrange and higher rev range. Now if youadded higher compression pistions or a 116 inch motor that those losses wouldn't occur.

True with a high performance cam, but you are assuming more overlap. The VM-1 cams are .412 lift and designed to work with stock compression. Not a race cam at all. Getting into th HPT cams, your assumptions are valid. Compression would definitely help with maintaining low end grunt.

 

True with a high performance cam, but you are assumig more overlap. The VM-1 cams are .412 lift and designed to work with stock compression. Not a race cam at all. Getting into th HPT cams, your assumptions are valid. Compression would definitely help with maintaining low end grunt.

.412 is not very radical at all. Do you know the overlap? I'm not against changing cams somedaybut like RV said I'd like to see what I can squeeze out of it stock before going inside.

 

wow another well thought out articulate answer. Let me explain it to you slowly. A higher lift cam opens the valves further. If the duration is no longer (time both the valves are open) then torque in the lower rev range normally pickes up. Now open your mind and ponder this: If the valve has more life and the duration remains the same what does that tell you about the angle of the profile of the cam? It becomes steeper. With me on thatDragon Boat Queen? (just using your poor judgement of humor). Duration, or when both valves are open at the same time lowers cranking pressures in low rpm conditions... with me on this Byron Hines? That, through the laws of physics, lowers cranking pressure. Hang in there. Lower cranking pressure meansa lowereffective compression ratio.Torque is the twising force of the crankshaft as the piston pushes down on the connecting rod spinning the crankshaft. Lower effective compression ration by the overlap at low rpm's diminishes torque. Clear?

Ever seen the compression ratio on a pro stock car? 14.5 to 15.5 to 1. the camshafts of these cars are so wild(huge lift and zip codelong duration that they need that high of a compression ratio just so they have enough effectivecranking pressure to rev the car up to 10,000rpms to stablize the engine.

Now to eleviate this car manufactures havego to a "variable" valve timingengine where until a certain RPM the 4valve head only opens up two of the valves thereby reducing effective loss of cranking pressure due to a high lift longer duration cam for that car. Victory's don't have the variable valve head so compromises have to be made. Yes your statement of "engineered correctly toflatten the torquecurve" is true. But flattening the torque curve interpreted correctly would be that the torque is constant like a table top through the widest possible RPM range. 100lbs ft at 2,000 RPMs and 100lbs ft at 4500RPMS. That's not what these aftermarket cams actually do. They do provide a boost in torque values in the midrange and higher rev range. Now if youadded higher compression pistions or a 116 inch motor that those losses wouldn't occur.

Adding in a lot of "if" about the duration after the fact probably helps your High Performance Car, with high compression pistons analogy quite a bit. With the exception of myself and one or two others we have been discussing Lloydz basic Direct Replacement HOH-VM1-DR cams, and there is ZERO perceptible low end torque loss, while my HOH-VM1-HPT cams do give up a little bottom end, the PCV and rev extension make it negligible as far as overall performance goes. And, if you remember, I provided Charts for both my set ups; DR & HPT in my profile, as well as numerous posts, but if you missed them, here they are. Next time someone asks about a High Performance dragster set up, I will definitely listen closely as you condescend, clear? But truth is, you have nothing useful to add to the VM-1 cam discussion, whether you like my humor or not. BTW review a few Dyno charts before talking about, "what these cams usually do" would you? It would make it easier for me to tolerate your overly simplistic and useless discussion of dragsters in the middle of a mild bike cam swap out discussion.

 

Adding in a lot of "if" about the duration after the fact probably helps your High Performance Car, with high compression pistons analogy quite a bit. With the exception of myself and one or two others we have been discussing Lloydz basic Direct Replacement HOH-VM1-DR cams, and there is ZERO perceptible low end torque loss, while my HOH-VM1-HPT cams do give up a little bottom end, the PCV and rev extension make it negligible as far as overall performance goes. And, if you remember, I provided Charts for both my set ups; DR & HPT in my profile, as well as numerous posts, but if you missed them, here they are. Next time someone asks about a High Performance dragster set up, I will definitely listen closely as you condescend, clear? But truth is, you have nothing useful to add to the VM-1 cam discussion, whether you like my humor or not. BTW review a few Dyno charts before talking about, "what these cams usually do" would you? It would make it easier for me to tolerate your overly simplistic and useless discussion of dragsters in the middle of a mild bike cam swap out discussion.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ did you type this between drinking andbelching your Budweiser??

 

Post # 12: a guy who is making false statements in this thread supposedly "knows a guy". Hardly trustworthy. Post # 20 a Guy who probably wouldn't spend the money over again. Did not find the BENEFIT worth the dollars spent. Hardly a rejection of the performance of the cam. What I said, "The next time I hear a guy regretting them will be the first time." Are YOU really trying to say I have heard people tell me previous to this thread that they regret putting cams in???

Considering I personally talkedto the owner of that bike and he directly told me that and I saw the bike while it was torn down in the Victory shop I have to take his word that he just was not impressed with them. Nothing wrong with that the cams just were not for him.
There is now a third post in this thread of someone not totally happy with the outcome. Why do you continue to dismiss that there are people out there that it just has not been what they expected it was going to be. Some of those would not do it again.

 

Considering I personally talked to the owner of that bike and he directly told me that and I saw the bike while it was torn down in the Victory shop I have to take his word that he just was not impressed with them. Nothing wrong with that the cams just were not for him.
There is now a third post in this thread of someone not totally happy with the outcome. Why do you continue to dismiss that there are people out there that it just has not been what they expected it was going to be. Some of those would not do it again.

Because you keep falsely attributing things to cams! This third person you speak of, is this the guy getting detonation below 3000 rpm's??? As pointed out AGAIN...that's most likely too much advance from the timing wheel and nothing to do with cams. Just like the loss of low end torque on SOME graphs also coincides with putting open exhaust on! All I and others have tried to do is pass on as honestly as possible what can be expected and you're insisting on making a pissing match out of it. ONCE AGAIN...here is the truth: If you want to see absolutely no loss of low end torque, regardless of how much slower that bike may actually be, real life riding...leave the stock exhaust pipes on. If you are having issues with detonation and ping...adjust your timing or octane rating of your fuel. If you want to know what the cons are of cams...like the original post sis...they cost money. Why are you insisting on stretching and twisting for a way to argue that cams cause some kind of "issues" that they don't cause? Would you be happy if I just went along and left false statements alone? Fine, I admit, I am wrong. Lloyd's VM-1 cams cause a loss of low end torque. They ruin your fuel mileage and cause detonation. If you put them in you'll blow up your engine like everyone else who put cams in. Redvic found me out, I just want everyone to put cams in like me cause I'm too proud to admit I wasted money. My bikes really don't run any better than stock, in fact they don't run at all. I blew them both up after putting cams in and now they just sit in the garage because I got no warranty.

 

Because you keep falsely attributing things to cams! This third person you speak of, is this the guy getting detonation below 3000 rpm's??? As pointed out AGAIN...that's most likely too much advance from the timing wheel and nothing to do with cams. Just like the loss of low end torque on SOME graphs also coincides with putting open exhaust on! All I and others have tried to do is pass on as honestly as possible what can be expected and you're insisting on making a pissing match out of it. ONCE AGAIN...here is the truth: If you want to see absolutely no loss of low end torque, regardless of how much slower that bike may actually be, real life riding...leave the stock exhaust pipes on. If you are having issues with detonation and ping...adjust your timing or octane rating of your fuel. If you want to know what the cons are of cams...like the original post sis...they cost money. Why are you insisting on stretching and twisting for a way to argue that cams cause some kind of "issues" that they don't cause? Would you be happy if I just went along and left false statements alone? Fine, I admit, I am wrong. Lloyd's VM-1 cams cause a loss of low end torque. They ruin your fuel mileage and cause detonation. If you put them in you'll blow up your engine like everyone else who put cams in. Redvic found me out, I just want everyone to put cams in like me cause I'm too proud to admit I wasted money. My bikes really don't run any better than stock, in fact they don't run at all. I blew them both up after putting cams in and now they just sit in the garage because I got no warranty.

Am I missingsomething that RedVic points out that I understand?Thereare Pro's and Con's to camshafts. The OP wanted to knowpossible con's and RedVic got hammered and I got jumped. Some think cam swaps are always 100% successful with no drawbacks and some of us differ. What is so dang hard to understand?RedVic is not disputing what good camshafts cando to aVic. Some people ride their bikes differently and grabbing 5800RPM's everytime you go out isn't everyone's cup of tea either.

 

Am I missing something that RedVic points out that I understand? There are Pro's and Con's to camshafts. The OP wanted to know possible con's and RedVic got hammered and I got jumped. Some think cam swaps are always 100% successful with no drawbacks and some of us differ. What is so dang hard to understand? RedVic is not disputing what good camshafts can do to a Vic. Some people ride their bikes differently and grabbing 5800 RPM's everytime you go out isn't everyone's cup of tea either.

Yes what is so hard to understand? RedVic got hammered and you got jumped because the cons you're attributing to cams are false. Once again, take two bikes identical except one has VM-1 cams and the proper tune to accompany them. Ride side by side at a nice leisurely 2300 rpm's. Roll both throttles on wide open, the cammed bike walk away from the non cammed bike. Is that easy enough to understand? Did anyone ever say you gotta run a cammed bike to 5800 rpm's to get the benefits? You guys are insisting that there's a loss of power somewhere in the rpm range if you put cams in...just not the truth. You can differ with that all you like and you'll still be wrong.

 

Because you keep falsely attributing things to cams! This third person you speak of, is this the guy getting detonation below 3000 rpm's??? As pointed out AGAIN...that's most likely too much advance from the timing wheel and nothing to do with cams. Just like the loss of low end torque on SOME graphs also coincides with putting open exhaust on! All I and others have tried to do is pass on as honestly as possible what can be expected and you're insisting on making a pissing match out of it. ONCE AGAIN...here is the truth: If you want to see absolutely no loss of low end torque, regardless of how much slower that bike may actually be, real life riding...leave the stock exhaust pipes on. If you are having issues with detonation and ping...adjust your timing or octane rating of your fuel. If you want to know what the cons are of cams...like the original post sis...they cost money. Why are you insisting on stretching and twisting for a way to argue that cams cause some kind of "issues" that they don't cause? Would you be happy if I just went along and left false statements alone? Fine, I admit, I am wrong. Lloyd's VM-1 cams cause a loss of low end torque. They ruin your fuel mileage and cause detonation. If you put them in you'll blow up your engine like everyone else who put cams in. Redvic found me out, I just want everyone to put cams in like me cause I'm too proud to admit I wasted money. My bikes really don't run any better than stock, in fact they don't run at all. I blew them both up after putting cams in and now they just sit in the garage because I got no warranty.

Where have I said cams are a waste of money?
If someone has the money and they want to go whole hog and buy everything at once so be it, good for them. All I pointed out was there are some who just were not that impressed after they did that and some of those would not do it again. There are dyno sheets showing cammed bikes where the torque curve was pushed up two to three hundred RPM's higher and there are some dyno sheets showing the torque curve stayed the same. Where have I lied or mislead anyone?
Some are very happy stopping short of getting cams me being one. My suggestion is to take it in steps because the person might just find a sweet spot prior to buying cams that they are very happy with. That is a good $1,000 dollars in their pocket for other things or just gas money.
I have never said cams are a waste of money, I have said that some may be happy stopping short of installing cams and I have documented some who just did not get that oh wow feeling from the cams and some of those have stated they would not do it again.
Why you have this huge problem with this is anyones guess.

 

Where have I said cams are a waste of money?
If someone has the money and they want to go whole hog and buy everything at once so be it, good for them. All I pointed out was there are some who just were not that impressed after they did that and some of those would not do it again. There are dyno sheets showing cammed bikes where the torque curve was pushed up two to three hundred RPM's higher and there are some dyno sheets showing the torque curve stayed the same. Where have I lied or mislead anyone?
Some are very happy stopping short of getting cams me being one. My suggestion is to take it in steps because the person might just find a sweet spot prior to buying cams that they are very happy with. That is a good $1,000 dollars in their pocket for other things or just gas money.
I have never said cams are a waste of money, I have said that some may be happy stopping short of installing cams and I have documented some who just did not get that oh wow feeling from the cams and some of those have stated they would not do it again.
Why you have this huge problem with this is anyones guess.

It's no use RV. We're arguing with Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid. Never ask questions...

 

It's no use RV. We're arguing with Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid. Never ask questions...

Or feel free to ask a question, just don't argue with the answer when it doesn't fit your preconceived notions.

 

This thread has got a little touchy. I don't know any of you fellas and up until two weeks ago was very happy with the way my bike ran. After I had the PC V wheel and cams installed not so much. That's what I was trying to say in my post. The comment about the amount advance on the wheel is appreciated, I wasn't attributing the detonation to the cams in particular , but the comment about loafing through town at anything less than 3000 rpm was directed to the OP. Hopefully my detonation problem once solved will restore that drive ability that I seem to have sacrificed Lyle

 

This thread has got a little touchy. I don't know any of you fellas and up until two weeks ago was very happy with the way my bike ran. After I had the PC V wheel and cams installed not so much. That's what I was trying to say in my post. The comment about the amount advance on the wheel is appreciated, I wasn't attributing the detonation to the cams in particular , but the comment about loafing through town at anything less than 3000 rpm was directed to the OP. Hopefully my detonation problem once solved will restore that drive ability that I seem to have sacrificed Lyle

I hope you get it worked out and you end up loving the bike with them.
As for me I don't spend a lot of time in the 4,000 plus RPM range so the stock cams work very well for me with the Lloydz air filter, Lloydz timing wheel, Victory heavy duty silicone plug wires, D&D exhaust and the Dobeck AFR+ Gen4 programmer.

 

Where have I said cams are a waste of money?
If someone has the money and they want to go whole hog and buy everything at once so be it, good for them. All I pointed out was there are some who just were not that impressed after they did that and some of those would not do it again. There are dyno sheets showing cammed bikes where the torque curve was pushed up two to three hundred RPM's higher and there are some dyno sheets showing the torque curve stayed the same. Where have I lied or mislead anyone?
Some are very happy stopping short of getting cams me being one. My suggestion is to take it in steps because the person might just find a sweet spot prior to buying cams that they are very happy with. That is a good $1,000 dollars in their pocket for other things or just gas money.
I have never said cams are a waste of money, I have said that some may be happy stopping short of installing cams and I have documented some who just did not get that oh wow feeling from the cams and some of those have stated they would not do it again.
Why you have this huge problem with this is anyones guess.

Let me try and dial this down a little and see if we can't find some coming ground. Yes, you are absolutely right to say there's nothing wrong with doing this in stages. Under several scenarios this approach ends up costing a little extra, but there's nothing wrong with that. I know this because my Kingpin has gone through several stages. I did the intake and exhaust upgrade. I did two different set of cams. I'm on my third set of pipes, my second fuel controller, and my second aftermarket intake. I would rather spend my money in stages even though I'm spending it twice on several of the upgrades. Financially wise? No. But it's my money, I'm happy with what I've done. Hopefully this explains why I'm so adamant that the cams are not causing a loss, I've done the stages. From my perspective, it's only money. I say yes, do it in stages. Maybe you'll end up paying someone to tune your bike twice, so what, I drink more than a dyno tune every month. And then again, maybe you'll be completely satisfied with the first upgrade. But having done the stages it's absolutely clear to me, cams have not cost me low end torque. I hope this clears things up and gets us on the same page. -Bob

 

.412 is not very radical at all. Do you know the overlap?

The lift is all you're gonna get. Lloydie doesn't give up his cam specs. There'a a lot more to cams than overlap.

I'm not against changing cams somedaybut like RV said I'd like to see what I can squeeze out of it stock before going inside.

That information is readily available.

 

There'a a lot more to cams than overlap.

Ah...yea... I ah.. thought that was obvious.

 

Cams that allow the use of the stock valve springs are not radical.
Given that the lift is so mild that the stock springs are fine, would a cam designer put long duration and overlap in a cam that is for a street ridden bagger bike? No, that would be stupid.
Knowing that the application is a stock compression engine, why would a designer compromise on cylinder pressure? He wouldn't.
What the designer would be looking at is opening the valves a bit farther, opening them sooner and faster, and closing them faster... while not losing cylinder pressure. To someone like you, who understands internal combustion engines, it should be easy to understand how the cams could improve performance without gutting the torque on the bottom. You understand the difference between a racing application (VM-2 cam)and a mild touring bikecamshaft.
Now... If you drop .495 S&Scams in a stock compression engine it would kill the low end torque. The engine would be lazy until 3000 rpm because it wouldnt have the compression to support the cams below that rpm.
It still makes me smile when people talk about a drop in set of cams as "Going into the motor".

 

Glad your smiling!

 

No cons for me...just had the bike re-tuned with baffles installed.

Check out the dyno sheet....

 

It still makes me smile when people talk about a drop in set of cams as "Going into the motor".

Exactly, I watched Kevinx drop in 8 sets this week-end in my garage. You pull the chrome valve cover off and there they are, ON TOP of the motor in the carrier, you don't get anywhere near going INTO the motor.