Close...you set it for a varity of conditions. Low cruise, high cruise, WOT, accell, and cross overs. It then goes instanly to the mixtures you choose. Lloyd had this system on one of the salt flat bikes he built with the kidz, and it was able to make an 80% change in fueling in a single dyno pass.

Just keep talking and I'm going to have you ship me one pre-set for my mods ;-) The only thing holding me back is the VFClll with your settings is working excellently.

 

The PCV is indeed versitile, but since it is RPM based. It is not nessecarily the most accurate.

KevinX, with all do respect, this comment is where you go wrong. It's precisely "because it's RPM based" that makes it the most accurate at delivering what the engine wants/needs, (A/F, timing and front to rear cylinder requirements), at the different segments of the engines RPM range. That's why carburetors have been put out to pasture, (so to speak). They were mechanical devices with set specs per application, which included parts like; primary & secondary jets, pilot jets, needles & seats, accelerator pumps, squirters, venturi & throttle plate butterfly size for cfm and more. And still, with all this engineering, could'nt adequately deliver what the engine truely wanted through the entire RPM range of the engine, from idle to redline, (from closed throttle to wide open), without having to compromise in our choice of settings. This is why we used to setup our carbs "rich" at the bottom so the engine wouldn't "lean out" at the top, (other factors apply according to the build).

Today, we don't have to compromise, and this is why we have such an advantage today/now. Technology has allowed us to advance past the "preset" days, giving us the ability to change the parameters of fuel/air mixture and timing requirements that affect output throughout the different RPM segements of our engines power band, (from idle to wide open throttle), extracting the engines true potential, maximizing hp & torque while being cognizant of retaining setting that afford the engine "safe settings" for a long life.

You can only get close with limited adjustment technology. To add, due to the lack of adjustment, there may be parameters set that would create unwanted lean conditions at certain "roll-on" throttle openings in different gears that could harm the engine because of pinging/piston knock, (piston skirts smacking the cylinder walls due to a lack of fuel causing an uneven burn above the piston in the chamber, rocking the piston side to side on it's pin, eventually causing a "cracked piston" and cylinder damage), or unwanted and unnecessary engine heat promoting excessive wear & tear. Remember, air cooled engines are a different animal compared to watercooled engines. If you know your history about the evolution of the internal combustion engine, "watercooling" was implemented to primarily "control cumbustion chamber tempuratures". Without that control, other means have to be adopted to help the engine function in different climates as well as lengthening the engines life. Fuel setting and ignition timing are paramount to this cause as well as advances in metals and their coating technologies that help them wear for a much greater period of time. This because the scale of heat fluxuation, (from one end of the spectrum to the other), far surpasses that of the controled temp water cooled engine.

You know, this whole subject matter reminds me of an old saying that could easily be applied here; "You get what you pay for". But as others have indicated, and I agree with, is that the impact of this subject matters truely depends on the level of performance upgrade you have and what kind of expectations you have, not to mention your riding habits. If your bike is "close to stock" and you normally ride "nice and easy' on a consistant basis, well then the fuel controlers would suffice. But if your like me, "addicted to horse power"and having all the Lloyds goodies, including the "HPT cams and S&S variable clutch" and "let it have it hard for a quarter mile or so" every now and then before settling into enjoyable touring...... I feel the PCV, at this time, is for you.

"The more control, the better".....That's all we "gear heads" ever wanted..... and now we have it.... How could you argue with that?

Speculation and assuming "SUCKS!"..... Knowing for sure is priceless...... and the #'s always back it up my friend.

Respectfully

Cap

 

The PCV is indeed versitile, but since it is RPM based. It is not nessecarily the most accurate.

KevinX, with all do respect, this comment is where you go wrong. It's precisely "because it's RPM based" that makes it the most accurate at delivering what the engine wants/needs, (A/F, timing and front to rear cylinder requirements), at the different segments of the engines RPM range.

Respectfully

Cap

Sounds great, but motorcycles do not live on a dyno. They live on the street where conditions change and a given throttle input at a given rpm are not the same. A PCV even with AT is not a true closed loop system of anywhere near the level of any car made since 1995. Without AT it is a system set up in a bubble, but expected to operate in the outside world. I kinda have an idea of what makes an engine work, and what to do. I have worked in automotive dealers through the intro of electronic injection. Worked in many levels of professional drag racing. Raced, tuned,and built short track cars. Worked as a tech services guy for Subaru, and generally hot rodded sh%t since I was a kid. So I do understand the dynamics of what I'm talking about.
As for numbers. I have a dyno 75 feet from where I'm sitting, and have spun many hundred bikes. I'm quite capable at building maps, and tuning many types of bikes. In other words...I'm not speculating. I'm sharing expieriance. So you're right. Numbers tell the story, but I coverd that earlier.

 

double

 

All I know is my bike has never seen a dyno. I have Pipes, front and top air filter, ATW, and VM1 cams. My PCV-AT has my bike bike running smooth and averaging 42.7 mpg. It was 43.1 but I had to prove I had cams to a flock of Screaming Eagles. Not saying it was my Vics fault but two of them are in the HD shop for repairs.

 

All I know is my bike has never seen a dyno. I have Pipes, front and top air filter, ATW, and VM1 cams. My PCV-AT has my bike bike running smooth and averaging 42.7 mpg. It was 43.1 but I had to prove I had cams to a flock of Screaming Eagles. Not saying it was my Vics fault but two of them are in the HD shop for repairs.

I'm sure it does. Did a bike with the same set up last weekend, and the guy is happy as can be. Did one yesterday with a custom map in a PCV...also happy as can be. Did 2 a couple of weeks ago with VFC3's, and guess what....?They are also happy as can be....lol. Point being that they all work quite well if you have a reasoable build. Once again...I build a 110 or bigger, build with torque tubes...They get a PCV. Does that mean I think it is better....No. It means that I think it's the right tool for the job in those situations.

 

Really interesting reading, but I think some are over thinking it. Take the majority (I think) of modded bikes. Cams, intake, exhaust, timing wheel...or less. It's not like one fuel controller is going to totally suck and another one will be the greatest thing since sliced bread. I bet given two Cross Country's, both with the same mods but one has a VFC-III and the other has a PC-V...I bet we'd all be hard pressed to tell the difference between the bikes. Now the gen 4 VFC...that sounds cool having my own a/f gauge and being able to set it or adjust it myself. But again if that gauge is hidden I bet it would be hard to tell the difference just from seat-of-the-pants performance.

 

Bikendad: "I believe you don't understand how the new VFClV works. On the new gen 4, the way I understand it, you merely set the desired AFR in a given rpm or throttle range and the tuner does the rest. So when you change pipes, filter, or whatever it automatically dials it in to your AFR settings instantly. Kevin, please correct me if I'm wrong here." No sure how you determine my understanding of the VFC-Gen4, but since I did recommend the OPuse a VFC-4 in certain situations, maybe you could enlighten me. Seems to me (and I graciously defer to you, or KevinX, if I am misunderstanding) the PCV w/AT is dynamically adjusting AFR to at least some degree, while a VFC-4 will always deliver the same AFR at a few specific RPM/ Throttle settings, and is therefore static. So, when atmospheric changes affect the AFR, PCV adjusts it, while the VFC stays set. AND, if I move to a different climate or altitude for a few weeks/months I can accept the new map my Autotuner offers and after a few adjustments it will be much more accurate, WITHOUT needing a dyno. Or am I misunderstanding? Does the Gen4 have Wideband O2 sensors? Kg

Missed this one. The gen 4 uses a wide band sensor in the rear cyl, and sets up mixture from there. Before I hear the gasp about the mixtures being different. Remember we are laying all of this on top of the factory system. Which already compensates for the front cyl being slightly cooler. All controlers pretty much operate on the original mapping, and to some degree vary for atmoshphere using that symbiosis

 

1-So what is the status of the VFCIV I cant find it?
2-If I was to do something like this I would set it and hide the gauge, but I can see the value of having it easily up front.
3-I thought Lloydz was working on a way to mount it?

 

1-So what is the status of the VFCIV I cant find it?
2-If I was to do something like this I would set it and hide the gauge, but I can see the value of having it easily up front.
3-I thought Lloydz was working on a way to mount it?

Tried to message you back, but the system would not allow it....Go figure
Loyd is playing with the software of the Gen4 before he puts his name on it. If you call Danny he can shed light on the availabilty, and pricing. The mount is actually pretty easy. You can get a can and bracket from Inovate for it.

 

Tried to message you back, but the system would not allow it....Go figure
Loyd is playing with the software of the Gen4 before he puts his name on it. If you call Danny he can shed light on the availabilty, and pricing. The mount is actually pretty easy. You can get a can and bracket from Inovate for it.

I tinks my setting are off will fix thanks

 

Sounds great, but motorcycles do not live on a dyno. They live on the street where conditions change and a given throttle input at a given rpm are not the same.

Ok, and this I'm well aware of, but you see, many years ago, when working for a top east coast race engine builder with an amazing machine shop and dyno room. I was taught that the only down fall to this set up, (engine only dyno), is how the #'s without the car, it's drivetrain, exhaust, tire size, weight of the vehicle, it's various management systems and climate conditions would not accurately translate to "real world" output/performance.

So now we take that engine, put it into the car it was built for, put the car on a chassis dyno with all of it's "real world"equipment, (ignition system, fuel system, exhaust system, suspension, tires, etc. etc.), applied and begin the dyno process all over again. Why do we do this?..... To get a more accurate engine tune, a tune that closely produces a "real world" outcome and corresponding #'s because it closely simulates "real world"application. The only variable left that can change the #'s is "real world" climate changes, but that's not a big deal since that's normally set with averages in mind.

With the example above, how is this different when putting a bike on "the rollers"? Wouldn't your "real world" discrepancy apply if only dynoing the engine alone, without the bike and it's systems? And as for the "a given throttle input at a given rpm are not the same".....absolutely! Finding that happy adjustment through the rpm segments is a matter of trail and error. Wacking the throttle at different rpms and in different gears while on the rollers gives you a good idea where you want it to end up.....right?

I have worked in automotive dealers through the intro of electronic injection. Worked in many levels of professional drag racing. Raced, tuned,and built short track cars. Worked as a tech services guy for Subaru, and generally hot rodded sh%t since I was a kid. So I do understand the dynamics of what I'm talking about.

I'm not questioning your experience or abilities. My question has to do with the obvious advantages gained when going from an "engine dyno", to a "chassis dyno". And of coarse, I know that no machine will ever emulate "real world" conditions or situations, but thats what the rollers were supposed to help us with in our quest to getting it as close to perfection as possible.

Again, with respect

Cap

 

If the PCV used data from the MAP sensor(not just as a boost switch), and we could write cells for different loads, RPM, and throttle position. It would be the ultra accurate device that many think it is. Unfortunately that would also require many times the cells we have to write against. So we build maps with some intuition, experience, and compromise. Do they work pretty well yes. Wide open throttle is the easy part. Any idiot can write that stuff. The cruise and transitions are where the real challenge come in. Why the challenge? Because we match throttle percentage to RPM, and it does not matter weather you are riding up hill or downhill. The PC will always add the same fuel. So in some areas the PC is supreme, and in some it's faults are clear. The VFC3 also has its plus and minus issues. It can't subtract fuel; so poor exhausts, or low velocity through the intake will hurt it. It is however looking at trends, and varies it's fueling more closely matched to what the factory mapping is doing underneath. In my experience the VFC is often smoother then the PCV for this reason. Properly tuned in a moderate engine the numbers for either; are roughly equal. So which is better is not as cut and dried as some wish to say. Improperly set up they both suck.

 

AT can only vary from the trims set a small percentage, and if you do not accept the changes. The bike will continuously return to its previously accepted trims; each time it is started. So while it operates in real time. It will never get to or stay at the desired point; without my input.

Really? The AT can only vary a small amount? I believe it can be set to vary the trims 20%. That's not small. You can leave the cable on the bike and the laptop in the garage and save the trims in seconds. You can take the laptop with you and save the trims on the fly. Why is thissuch a big inconvenience? Oh, and it is never a good idea to ride around looking at an A/F gauge when you should be watching where you're going.

As for load vs RPM. The PC will always add or subtract the same amount of fuel at a given RpM, and throttle point. Uphill, down hill, cruise, gear selection, accell, decell, make no difference. Load based look at rate of change, and trends to determine fueling. Both systems have their flaws. But there is no confusing how RPM vs load base differ in basic philosophy. Your analogy is way off. More like dropping the cup vs throwing the cup. End result is a broken cup, but the path is way different

OK, if that is the case, how can a dyno tuned and Power Commander equipped bike run so well in the real world? As long as the A/F is set for a specific TP/RPM, whether you are travelinguphill, downhill, or on level ground why would you want the A/F to be different?
I don't even see where you are going with your cup thing. Are you saying one is so vastly better than the other?
People keep talking about "real world". When the bike is rolled up on the dyno, last time I checked both the dyno and the bike are still in the real world. Either the bike is tuned or it isn't.Either it runs right or it doesn't.
Then there is the claim that theresults of a well tuned VFC-III and a well tuned PC-V will be the same "in the real world". Well that may be true... untill 5500 rpm... where the VFC equipped bike will meet Mr. Rev Limiter and the party is over. The PC-V equipped bike can rev out to where the power drops off. If HP is still building (graph climbing) at 5500 RPM, guess what? You are leaving untapped power on the table.
The PC-V can take out fuel. The VFC-III cannot. There are many cases where the VFC is way too rich on initial hit and there's not a damned thing you can do about it... This is why some people have switched to a PC-V... they had no choice, the VFC-III wouldn't tune their bike. Fuel needed to be taken out for a leaner mixture.
Throwing the VFC-IV vs AutoTune in the mix has been a cluster f**k. I'm pretty sure people are adequately confused WITHOUT throwing that in.The question was VFC-III or PC-V and the answer is "That depends". If it was asked which is better, the answer is clearer...

 

Not going to do the copy paste thing but a few points....pardon the paraphrase. Why would you want the AF to be different in uphill vs down hill? Problem is with the PCV we are talking about adding and subtracting fuel.These aditions and subtractions are the same under any load. Not running preset mixtures. That would be the AT unit Mr Rev extend is admittedly nice, but with a re flash I can get it in all 6 gears. Not just 4 If you paid attention I have repeatedly stated that both systems have thier faults. Where I was going with YOUR cup thing is simply to point out that your analogy missed the mark completely. I have also repeatedly pointed out that the PC can remove fuel and for some situations it is required. So I'm at a loss as to why you would bring it up yet again. The answer is about as clear as mud. Both have strong points, both have weak points, both have lots of happy customers. FINALLY.....You say that glancing at an AF gauge is not safe........Real sage advice from a guy who pulls wheelies on the street. Let's try not to be a hypocrite.....okay?

 

Doublle

 

Wow, this is almost as long as a tire or oil thread! I appreciate all the feedback guys and while a lot of what you guys are saying is Greek to me there is certainly some info in there I understand. Probably should have asked the question a little differently or been more specific. My mods are done, I think, and figure a fuel controller of some sort should be added to for the lack of a better term, smooth it out a bit. Could probably get what I am looking for in the VFC. If I can come across a couple side jobs before my purchase then the PC would be a little easier to swallow. any you MA guys need some electrical work???

 

YES~

 

FINALLY.....You say that glancing at an AF gauge is not safe........Real sage advice from a guy who pulls wheelies on the street. Let's try not to be a hypocrite.....okay?

Kevin,
While I may disagree with what you say (your position on a subject) I have never attacked you personally, called you a hypocrite, or said anythingderogatory about you as a person. I would appreciate the same in return.
***An ad hominem argument occurs when one attacks the person making an argument rather than the argument itself. It is therefore a special case of the broader category of formal logical fallacies. The conclusion urged,that the disputant is incorrect, does not follow from the premise asserted, e.g. that the disputant is a dick. Even if the ad hominem attack is true andthe disputant really is a dick, that fact has no bearing on whether the disputant's argument is logically sound.***
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_hominem

 

Despite some jousting of a couple of esteemed members who I don't always agree with everything they say, I do listen to them, this seems to be a good time to own a Vic.
The tried and true dyno approach, and the new end VFC4 if it actually comes out and folks like me don't balk at the price, that seems highish to me, but oh well. Someone like me can make minor add ons without a re-tune, or just leave well enough alone. There are only 2 dyno tuners in my area that have any sort of good reputation I'm aware of, both HD shops, both only interested in HD, and both have sealed I won't do business with them far before I ever even heard of Victory.
It will be interesting when these things hit the ground. New age or old school that works very well and probably not in any real need of change.
Excuse me while I hang back to the shadows.
Cheers

 

Kevin,
While I may disagree with what you say (your position on a subject) I have never attacked you personally, called you a hypocrite, or said anythingderogatory about you as a person. I would appreciate the same in return.

Why? I don't know, but this reminds me of a time when an overweight co-worker said he hated going to church because hypocrites worshiped there. I responded by asking him if he quit going to the grocery store because hypocrites shopped there, because it didn't look like he missed any meals....Okay, I know this has NOTHING to do with PCV vs. VFC, but my mind wanders like this...

 

Why? I don't know, but this reminds me of a time when an overweight co-worker said he hated going to church because hypocrites worshiped there. I responded by asking him if he quit going to the grocery store because hypocrites shopped there, because it didn't look like he missed any meals.

I think that's the worst analogy I ever saw. Evidently his comment about the people in church hurt your feelings and you felt the need to retaliate... picking the low-hanging fruit of his weight.
Just because he is overweight, that doesn't mean he was wrong about the people heexperienced at church being hypocrites. You have given the perfect example of an ad hom attack.
"From my experience the people at church were hypocrites"
"Oh yeah? Well you're FAT!"
The translation of this response is "I got nothin'. I can't refute the point you are making,so I'll try to discredit thesource".
The person who controls their emotions and makes reasoned arguments has a better chance of convincing the listener of his position.... while saying things like, "Oh yeah? Well you're fat" looks a lot like what a butt-hurt child would respond with and is not convincing at all.

 

HC....I always love discussion with you. Take the comment for what it was. Not an attack, but a humerus jab to remind you that both the pot and kettle are black. You have made similar remarks over the years, and I've always taken them as tounge in cheek. I assumed you had suitably thick skin to do the same. If you took it of anything more. I would offer my apologies.

 

With your bike, if you ever think you might do cams then yes. When your ready head down to Westerly RI and see Kyle at KMC; either way you will be impressed after it is tuned.

 

HC....I always love discussion with you. Take the comment for what it was. Not an attack, but a humerus jab to remind you that both the pot and kettle are black.

Since you brought it up... I hit 2nd gear just right yesterday resulting in a SWEET 2nd gear wheelie... all power. It was glorious. Irresponsible? Probably... but glorious none the less.