Since there are a few VOG Members who enjoy debating politics, and since the 2012 Election Campaign has now officially started, I thought it best to start this SINGLE thread so that the Members can voice their opinions without the need to start multiple Political Threads. It might be interesting to use this thread as a documentary on the feelings of motorcycle riders towards the political race as it develops and later check back on it to see what has changed. It will also be interesting to use this as a documentary of various political promises and see if the candidates change their promises midstream. I'll kick off this thread with a segment from MSNBC about "what could be the first Billion Dollar Campaign in US History":
The Official 2012 Election Thread
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Andy
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Ahhh ..... you found the usual misquoted Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli. Now, there is no "cut & paste" here. Let's have a history lesson. Actually, the full name of the treaty is: "Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary." It's misquoted, because it is pulled out of historical context. Now - by lifting this Article out of the Treaty of Tripoli out of it's historical context, you, and other's with the anti-Christian agenda, point & say - "See, the Founding Father's did not consider the United States a Christian Nation." You lack understanding. You ignore important context - of what they were trying to achieve. You ignore the nuance & the bigger picture involved for the USA. But this is a common problem for people lacking the depth of historical perspective. The reality is, the pirates of the Barbary Coast (Morocco, Algiers, Tripoli, and Tunis - had been successfully harassing & pillaging commercial shipping off their coasts for 300 years. Their point was twofold - plunder & payback. The payback was for the Christian Crusades on their Muslim brothers. The capturing of commercial ships & forcing the passengers into slavery was so common, and the cause (payback for the Crusades by these Muslim states) that an American general said (don't remember who he was) "Christians who want to be on good terms (with the Barbary Muslim States) must either fight well, or pay well." Here's the important historical context - the piracy was a big time pain. It was also expensive - losing ships, cargo, crews & passengers. The USA had to pay to get ships & people released, and they had to pay to have their ships pass without being attacked. It was expensive & each Nation grew greedier & greedier. There was even a rumor that Benjamin Franklin had been captured the Barbary pirates while traveling between the U.S. and France. President Washington appointed a Commissioner to negotiate a treaty to end the hostilities. The task was achieved (actually there were a number of treaties over the years - but I'm simplifying here and discussing the Treaty of 1797). The Treaty was signed in 1796 in Algiers, and in Tripoli in 1797, then to Portugal, finally arrived in the USA. Here's the point - to all the Barbary pirate nations - it was a religious war to punish Christians - and get plunder. George Washington did not want to fight a religious war. George Washington did not want to fight any war. The USA could ill afford it. They were struggling to establish a young United States & it's survival was not certain. As the Treaty travelled - it was signed by officials along the way. Now, Bigfoot made an issue that no one protested about the Treaty. Here's the reality, whether they agreed with every detail was not important - since the Treaty had been traveling for 7 months & getting signed along the way by diplomats & rulers - they could not debate & change it anyway. The Treaty was what it was. The big issue was - it ended the attacks - ratify it - and they did. Ending the piracy & hostilities was important. The USA Federal Govt. had NO state recognized religion. Therefore, the USA did not champion Christianity (as England, France, Italy, etc., had during their history - hence the Crusades). So - in reality, ending the hostilities was the issue. Religion was not the issue. The Treaty of Tripoli stated a fact - the United Stated has NO state recognized religion - no agenda. It was not a hill worth dying on. So, grab at straws & promote your agenda. It doesn't matter. I'll continue to be a student of truth. It takes time & effort - but worth it.bigfoot said:
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Obama continues to blow it - NBC's Brokaw: "Saudis 'So Unhappy' With Obama They Sent Emissaries to China, Russia Seeking Enhanced Ties" Wednesday, April 06, 2011 By Susan Jones (CNSNews.com) - Reporting from Baghdad, Iraq yesterday, NBC's Tom Brokaw said the Saudi Arabian monarchy is "so unhappy with the Obama administration for the way it pushed out President Mubarak of Egypt" that it has sent senior officials to the Peoples' Republic of China and Russia to seek expanded business opportunities with those countries.
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The Birther movement is simply proof of how gullible some of our citizens are. (over 40% of Republicans, and I think nearly 100% of the TEA Party) They remind me of the Afghani's who got all upset and killed 20 people over the idiots burning of the Koran a couple of weeks earlier. (They actually had more reason to be gullible as they are 80% or more illiterate) Damn the facts, full steam ahead! If you are a Birther, you are calling the State of Hawaii a liar. (Would you do that to Texas?) If you are a Birther, you are calling the Republican Governor of Hawaii a liar. (New Governor now) If you are a Birther, you are saying that all Hawaiians are not USA citizens because all of them have the exact same style of Birth Certificate as President Obama. If you are a Birther, you are saying that the Right leaning Supreme Court is in cahoots with President Obama by not hearing any of the cases brought before it. If you are a Birther, you are saying that the Federal Government is in cahoots with President Obama and all the other citizens of Hawaii by providing Passports using their birth certificates as proof of citizenship. The fact that President Obama was issued a passport should be enough proof in itself. If you are a Birther, you are saying that the birth announcements in 2 of Hawaii's newspapers were in cahoots with President Obama so that he would be eligible to be President 4 decades later. there are at least two birth announcement listings for his August 4, 1961 birth. The first was published in the Honolulu Advertiser on August 13, 1961, and the second was published in the Hawaii Star Bulletin on August 14, 1961. The idea that all of this would be planned and implemented in order to fake his United States birth is completely beyond the realm of sanity and reason. If Donald Trump is a Birther, then he is not worth any more of my time. If you believed anything "Oily Taint" ever said, then I've got a bridge to sell you. If you believe that Sarah Palin, or Michelle Bachman is a worthy candidate for President, you are not worth any more of my time. Want proof? If they were both fat and dog ugly they wouldn't ever be seen on TV. But because your "junk" gets all warm and fuzzy looking at these two fairly attractive women, you think they would be a good President? ******************************************** Satxron, I playfully referred to some posters on this forum as "cackling old hens" or something equally silly. There was a suggestion that I be banned.:gun_bandana: There are some on this board who don't understand dry humor or have trouble with reading comprehension. I had a buddy at work who was a genius, but he never understood a joke. Somebody must have removed his funny-bone when he was an infant.
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What's the big deal about a President providing his/her Birth Certificate as documentation? Isn't that a requirement of Office? President Obama can clear up this once and for all...just show the paperwork. What I'm interested in seeing is his college transcript and if there may have been some confusion stated regarding his state/country of birth.
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ddawg, I am well aware of the position you put forth, but certain facts remain as I stated. You are inferring that our Senators unanimously lied, President Adams lied, and citizens across America pretended to go along with the lie. I will agree that MOST founding fathers believed in some kind of Supreme Being (God). Knowing that there have been over 2,700 "Gods" since the beginning of written history, I feel comfortable in stating that I believe in none of them, while you may believe in one of them. Thinking about my position, 0 for 2,700, and your position 1 for 2,700, we basically think statistically alike.:devil2:
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ddawg wrote; Obama continues to blow it - NBC's Brokaw: "Saudis 'So Unhappy' With Obama They Sent Emissaries to China, Russia Seeking Enhanced Ties" Wednesday, April 06, 2011 By Susan Jones (CNSNews.com) - Reporting from Baghdad, Iraq yesterday, NBC's Tom Brokaw said the Saudi Arabian monarchy is "so unhappy with the Obama administration for the way it pushed out President Mubarak of Egypt" that it has sent senior officials to the Peoples' Republic of China and Russia to seek expanded business opportunities with those countries. Let's have a little history lesson.
When did the Saudi's kick our military out? I believe we had spent a few billion dollars on those bases. (One was the largest air base in the World) Our Air Force moved into Al Udeid Air Base in Qatar, which was built in 1996 at Qatar's expense. A poll in 2003 by Zogby International showed that 97 percent of Saudis view the United States in a negative light. Even though President Bush held hands with the King while walking through the gardens (reminded me of Tiny Tim's "tiptoe through the tulips"), the love affair was over. And finally, how many of the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11 were Saudi's? So, what's new? Nothing. Just fill for a 24/7 news cycle.
When did the Saudi's kick our military out? I believe we had spent a few billion dollars on those bases. (One was the largest air base in the World) Our Air Force moved into Al Udeid Air Base in Qatar, which was built in 1996 at Qatar's expense. A poll in 2003 by Zogby International showed that 97 percent of Saudis view the United States in a negative light. Even though President Bush held hands with the King while walking through the gardens (reminded me of Tiny Tim's "tiptoe through the tulips"), the love affair was over. And finally, how many of the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11 were Saudi's? So, what's new? Nothing. Just fill for a 24/7 news cycle.
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Actually Biggie, it is kinda strange he has spent 2 million fighting this stuff. McCain was born in Panama. It was not a territory of the United States and there is no constitutional indication that a military installation is our sovereign soil. Only and Embassy gets that distinction. His mother was not in the Navy and was not bound to be out of the country at the time he was born. The U.S. like England uses soil as its reference in common law and understanding. I can find no reason why John McCain can be president. There is no need to respond to the above, its just about the same nonsense. All of the Democratic and Republican candidates should have been screaming about these things long before primaries let alone a Presidential election. What if some really, really super duper big finding comes up? Do we really think they will impeach him two years into his term of office? Do we really think the Supreme court will invalidate him? I don't even think there is a prior discussion anywhere in legal circles about what if a guy gets to be President and we find out later he was not natural born. Exactly how would we handle that one? They surely will keep working it for the next two years to keep the waters dirty to stop his re-election. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Looks like the Donald is playing the birthers for support. Hmmm, looks like somebody may be running huh? It will be interesting to watch Hillary. I always thought she would challenge him even though he is the sitting President. Now I am thinking she will not. I don't think she will stay on for a 2nd term should he be re-elected.
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How come nobody's talking about Wisconsin's Supreme Court election and Glenn Beck's exit from Faux News? Some Democratic lady is presently in front Scott Walker's choice (and the incumbent) as his yes man. (200+ votes out of 1.5 million, recount will be asked for of course) If this election result stands, it will be only the third time an incumbent Supreme Court member lost an election in Wisconsin's history. The Republican Supreme Court incumbent candidate was leading the Democratic candidate 6 weeks ago by polling numbers that seemed like a sure lock on the election. 55% to 25%. 30% lead. That was before Scott Walker went after the Unions. He woke the sleeping giant. Bonus The Republican who was running for Scott Walker's old job was blown out of the water by the Democrat. ********************************** Glenn Beck and Faux News will part ways. I know this will be hard on some forum members who will now have to listen to the radio to know when to put on their Nike's and drink the Kool-Aid. Even though Glenn had the third highest ratings on Faux News, they couldn't get advertisers to spend their money sponsoring the nightly "End of Times" revival. (over 300 advertisers bailed) Seems like auto companies and such didn't think it was a good idea to spend advertising dollars on a show that preaches Armageddon every night. Heck, whose going to spend $30,000 on a new Chevy when maybe they should be buying survival seeds, gold, and vacuum sealed beef stroganoff stuffed into a handy backpack.:innocent:
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Because the thread is election 2012 and we are about 90% of the time off topic so we are trying to stay on topic. We started a fantasy election but that didn't fly soooo Predict something for 2012. Like will Obama keep Biden on the ticket? Will his platform still be "Yes we can" or will it be "Sheesh, this is hard stuff"? Will "We are who we have been waiting for" change to "Too bad we didn't miss the bus"?
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I thought there was a fire of some sort and the certificate and records were burned many years ago before digital archiving. I must be mistaken. When I got my passport a certificate of live birth was not the same. The Birth Certificate had to list the mother, child, location, seal, reference number etc. How do I know. The people rejected the one I sent in the first time. I had to spend money to get the real document sent to me then re-submit. Its good for entertainment value to watch though. Go Donald! I think I would vote for him. May as well have some laughs as we circle the bowl :10900:
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This is very funny stuff!! Entertaining & good theatre. Ha-ha-ha-ha!!!! TRENDING: Trump sends investigators to Hawaii to look into Obama By: CNN Political Producer Alexander Mooney Washington (CNN) - Self-proclaimed birther Donald Trump is now so doubtful of President Obama's birthplace that he's sent a team of his own investigators to Hawaii in hopes of getting to the bottom of the issue. That's according to Trump himself, who, in an interview with NBC, warned his investigators just might uncover "one of the greatest cons in the history of politics and beyond." "I have people that have been studying it and they cannot believe what they're finding," Trump said an interview that aired Thursday Morning. Asked if he has assigned people specifically to search in Hawaii, Trump said, "Absolutely."
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