[dsjr70]

"Thinking before reacting"......that is where most people make their biggest mistakes in politics/life/business. When I watch debates like these threads, one of the first things I do is see whether people are actually listening/reading what their antagonists are saying.

I think in the real world, on here I figure why bother... I'm more entertaining that way

 

[phoenix9]

I think in the real world, on here I figure why bother... I'm more entertaining that way

.....and it's even better when you drink! :wacko:

 

[dsjr70]

.....and it's even better when you drink! :wacko:

I usually try to go back and police my threads the next day... Most of the times they arent to bad but they usually involve call someone a dumbass... :gunsmilie:

 

[ddawg]

They recoiled against ...... organized religion. They specifically penned on many occasions that America is not a Christian nation but a nation where all religions can be embraced and practiced.

Are you certain about those two statements? They are not excatly accurate. Do you know where your "statement #2" came from? I am not trying to play a game of "gotcha" here Saxtron. But, those statements that you list as factual - are more complex than you state - and not accurate as you state them. Can you verify?

 

[satxron]

The 17th Amendment was one that really started this country to unravel. The Senate represented the collective will of the State. Senators sent by the State legislature to do the business of the State. Senators to ensure the fed did not take away any of their rights. They turned them into empty suits with teleprompters once it became a popularity contest. We should now rename Senator to Prince, Duke, or Dumbass whichever fits. IMHO, a real Senator would be screaming about deficit spending and excessive taxation as his State will eventually suffer for it. Now they buy him off with an earmark, and construction money for one of his buds that pays for his campaign. He is good to go for anything. Senators are probably easier to negotiate with than hookers. The hooker has stuff she will not do.

 

[dsjr70]

Are you certain about those two statements? They are not excatly accurate. Do you know where your "statement #2" came from? I am not trying to play a game of "gotcha" here Saxtron. But, those statements that you list as factual - are more complex than you state - and not accurate as you state them. Can you verify?

Interesting... I never spent much time researching this but it was always my belief that the Country was founded under a general belief in God not Christianity and the protection from any one set religion... Lets see where this one goes but I do not get into religious debates...

 

[dsjr70]

 

[satxron]

I am not allowed to paste but it would be long. Copy and paste this into any search engine. It will be pretty close to accurate. Atheist and Agnostics were well represented in the group when this country was born. "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This is the lowest grade of ignorance where civil and religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes." Look up "Letter to H. Spafford" or try to find Treaty of Peace and Friendship. Beyond this there is no sense in continuing. If you think I am wrong your entitled to think that.

 

[ddawg]

Interesting... I never spent much time researching this but it was always my belief that the Country was founded under a general belief in God not Christianity and the protection from any one set religion... Lets see where this one goes but I do not get into religious debates...

Actually Don - I don't argue about religions from a "religious" point of view. I do not belong to any church or faith. My interist is historical & educational. As I have stated a number of times here - I am a "student of truth." I have a History degree & have been a committed student of early American history for 30 years. I know a little about what I am speaking to. When people either write, or make statements that the Founding Father's were racists, and that America was not founded on Christianity - it is revisionist history. They refer to a few crumbs out of history (a sentence lifted out of a letter) and build a cake with a broad statement. I think Sazxtron has a good heart - but he has fallen into that trap of revisionist history. There are reasons why it takes years of study - to understand context - a wide variety of moving parts & nuance - to really understand where these men stood on issues. The statement that Saxtron wrote (and this is not an attack on you Saxtron) that the Founding Father's recoiled at organized religion is not accurate. Also, the statement that America was not founded on Christianity. I know precicesly where that statement cam from. There is much more historical context to review & examine than we have time for - or interest. But, I urge caution from blanket statements. Accuracy & truth suffers.

 

[Bigfoot]

dsjr70 wrote; Beside what's wrong with buying votes? Politicians have been doing it for years. Besides if I use my own money it is capitalism at it's best dsjr70 is actually one of the Koch brothers.

 

[Bigfoot]

Saturn wrote; If you read the constitution then read the letters, and papers of the framers you would find that a Libertarian society is kinda where they were going with the formation of the country. They believed you should be able to pursue anything you wish without them interfering as long as you didn't step on anybody else in the process. They recoiled against king like behavior in a leader and organized religion. They specifically penned on many occasions that America is not a Christian nation but a nation where all religions can be embraced and practiced :thumbup: I wish that Thomas Jefferson would have gotten his wish of not allowing Churches to own property and that they should pay taxes.

 

[ddawg]

Saturn wrote; If you read the constitution then read the letters, and papers of the framers you would find that a Libertarian society is kinda where they were going with the formation of the country. They believed you should be able to pursue anything you wish without them interfering as long as you didn't step on anybody else in the process. They recoiled against king like behavior in a leader and organized religion. They specifically penned on many occasions that America is not a Christian nation but a nation where all religions can be embraced and practiced :thumbup: I wish that Thomas Jefferson would have gotten his wish of not allowing Churches to own property and that they should pay taxes.

Thomas Jefferson is an interesting study - a complex & paradoxical Man. He's one of those "racist" Founding Father's - because he owned slaves. Yet he disliked slavery, referred to it as a "disease." Any discussion of Jefferson is a journey into the complex. The ACLU - and perhaps you too - cite his letter to the Baptists in Danbury, Conn. (written 1802), that there must be a "separation of church and state." It's been quoted so much - people quote it as part of the Constitution. Of note - two days after Jefferson wrote that letter he attended church in the Capitol building - where he did for both his Presidential terms. He also authorized church meetings in the War Dept. Bldg. He also sent his children to Christian school. It's more complex than your soundbite.

 

[dsjr70]

I usually avoid these political threads completely as there are far better places for intelligent debate on the subject, and this is for motorcycles (IMO). However, I peeked inside this thread and was ready to run when I saw your comment and simply couldn't believe what I read. Are you really so clueless as to suggest Obama (or any other politician) hasn't routinely said one thing and done another? Do you really think there is no evidence of Obama promising many things and taking many positions during his campaign to get elected and doing nothing or the opposite? Really? I know I will regret this, but here is a 'short' list of his promises - NONE of which has been fulfilled. And please don't tell me the reason was opposition on the right, preventing him from succeeding. As you should know, he has had a super majority for most of his presidency and in many cases he just didn't even attempt to do what he promised, opposition notwithstanding. Also, for a nice video summation of Obama's promise breaking and policy reversals, even embracing the very Bush policies he self-righteously campaigned against, see this site for LIBERAL Jon Stewart's list of them: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-june-15-2010/respect-my-authoritah And don't tell me how he's a comedian - listen to the poinst made by this big Obama supporter. SO here's a little list of "promises" by Mr. Obama for all to consider: Promise: Increase capital gains and dividends taxes from 15 to 20 percent for those making more than $250,000 (couples) or $200,000 Promise: Introduce a comprehensive immigration bill in the first year "I cannot guarantee that it is going to be in the first 100 days. But what I can guarantee is that we will have in the first year an immigration bill that I strongly support and that I'm promoting. Broken Promise: No more renditions and no more suspension of Habeus Corpus which is considered contrary to Supreme Court rulings, especially for the detainees in Baghram: Broken Promise: Repeal the Bush tax cuts for those making more than $250,000 (couples) or $200,000 Broken Promise: End income tax for seniors making less than $50,000 "Will eliminate all income taxation of seniors making less than $50,000 per year. This will eliminate taxes for 7 million seniors Broken Promise: Allow five days of public comment before signing bills To reduce bills rushed through Congress and to the president before the public has the opportunity to review them, Obama "will not sign any non-emergency bill without giving the American public an opportunity to review and comment on the White House website for five days." Broken Promise: Eliminate the use of Executive Signing Statements Broken Promise: Negotiate health care reform in public sessions televised on C-SPAN To achieve health care reform, "I'm going to have all the negotiations around a big table. We'll have doctors and nurses and hospital administrators. Insurance companies, drug companies -- they'll get a seat at the table, they just won't be able to buy every chair. But what we will do is, we'll have the negotiations televised on C-SPAN, so that people can see who is making arguments on behalf of their constituents, and who are making arguments on behalf of the drug companies or the insurance companies. Shamelessly broken and takes an award in private for transparency. Promise: Allow imported prescription drugs "Allow Americans to buy their medicines from other developed countries if the drugs are safe and prices are lower outside the U.S. Broken Promise: Tougher rules against revolving door for lobbyists and former officials "No political appointees in an Obama-Biden administration will be permitted to work on regulations or contracts directly and substantially related to their prior employer for two years. And no political appointee will be able to lobby the executive branch after leaving government service during the remainder of the administration." Broken Promise: Reduce earmarks to 1994 levels "Barack Obama is committed to returning earmarks to less than $7.8 billion a year, the level they were at before 1994." Broken Promise: No family making less than $250,000 will see "any form of tax increase." "I can make a firm pledge. Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes." Broken Promise: Enact windfall profits tax for oil companies "Will require oil companies to take a reasonable share of their record-breaking windfall profits and use it to provide direct relief worth $500 for an individual and $1,000 for a married couple. The relief would be delivered as quickly as possible to help families cope with the rising price of gasoline, food and other necessities. The rebates would be fully paid for with five years of a windfall profits tax on record oil company profits." As of March 2011: Three budget plans, no proposals for windfall profits tax - Broken Close the Guantanamo Bay Detention Center The Promise: "As president, Barack Obama will close the detention facility at Guantanamo." As of April 2011: Obama announces changes to Guantanamo detention policy and detainees will be tried there. BROKEN Create a foreclosure prevention fund for homeowners The Promise: Create a $10 billion fund to help homeowners refinance or sell their homes. "The Fund will not help speculators, people who bought vacation homes or people who falsely represented their incomes." As of March 2011: Foreclosure prevention fund a "colossal failure," special inspector says BROKEN Forbid companies in bankruptcy from giving executives bonuses The Promise: "Protect the jobs and benefits of workers and retirees when corporations file for bankruptcy by telling companies that they cannot issue bonuses for executives during bankruptcy while their workers watch their pensions disappear." No sign of action on promise about executive bonuses - BROKEN

I wanted to bump this since Biggy has been away he might have missed it... Some good info here...

 

[satxron]

Ddawg, I am so happy to see you posting about Jefferson sending his kids to Christian School and allowing church services in government buildings as evidence of his Christian belief. I should have used Thomas Payne to give you more pain in getting around him. That being the case you clearly stand squarely behind President Obama and his Christian faith. He attended a Christian church for decades, goes to church every Sunday along with his wife and children, both kids baptized into the Christian church. Or should I exercise caution there? I get a little confused with caution, soundbites, etc. Are they just others or do yours also need cautionary warnings.

 

[Bigfoot]

Greywings post is very good and will take time to research it. Some of his points I will concede, others, well no. Thomas Jefferson created his own Bible and removed ALL references to the miracles of Jesus. It's called the Jefferson Bible. He was definitely NOT a Christian. He also studied Islam, and had his own Koran which was recently used to swear in a member of Congress. There are writings by Benjamin Franklin where he states that Jesus was a good man, but not the son of God. George Washington used to attend church services with his wife in order to achieve domestic tranquility, but when the sacraments were being distributed, he always left the church without partaking in them. There is always this, "Treaty of Tripoli" to use as a reference showing that our infant Government did not feel that it was founded on Christianity. "signed at Tripoli on November 4, 1796 and at Algiers (for a third-party witness) on January 3, 1797. It was submitted to the Senate by President John Adams, receiving ratification unanimously from the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797 and signed by Adams, taking effect as the law of the land on June 10, 1797". The Treaty as written is below; As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. This Treaty was published in the 2 largest newspapers of the time and there wasn't any outcry from the public over the wording. One third of the signers of the Constitution were freemasons. George Washington and Benjamin Franklin were both 33 degree Masons and Deists. To be a Mason you have to believe in a "Supreme Being" of some sort or another. As many of our Founding Fathers were Deists, that qualified. Finally, IF our country was founded on Christianity, why wasn't there a single reference to Christ Jesus in any of our documents? You can't possibly believe that they forgot. All references to a Supreme Being in our founding documents use the same non specific terminology that Masons use.

 

[Bigfoot]

Hey Greywing, check this out:devil2: Go here to see 7 pages of President Obama's promises that he kept. http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/rulings/promise-kept/ Here is another site that may prove interesting as time goes on; http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/gop-pledge-o-meter/ Here is the "Top 25 Promises" and the current results. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/subjects/politifacts-top-promises/

 

[Andy]

In an attempt to keep this thread On Topic, here's two back-to-back segments from tonight's (4/6/11) NBC Nightly News:

 

[ddawg]

Ddawg, ....... to give you more pain ..........

Saxtron - is that why you post - to agitate & cause problems? An interesting reason - perhaps it explains why you accuse people of desiring to murder innocent people with zero evidence. I'm still waiting for my apology for your outrageous & baseless claim. Have a nice evening.

 

[satxron]

I bet you are the only person on this forum that did not notice the friendly play on words in my post. Don't lash out because you happen to be reading a breakdown of why and where your are mistaken. Apology? Sure, let me think on that. Okay, I thought, NO. If you believe Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Thomas Payne and many others were founding this nation on Christian beliefs that is fine. Whatever works for you. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ OK! Go Donald! :hammer: You are all fired! For some of you, the above line is a joke and having some fun.

 

[dsjr70]

Well I still hold onto the US was formed under a belief in God... Not Christianity. In their time the Catholic church was very powerful and they could not afford the influence with starting a new Country. As for Satxron comment... The Donald has 17% share in the next popularity contest. Heck if a actor can do the job well why not a businessman!