[Flyboy]

As I understand it from some Victory Video on the Tour Scoots, that intentional reduced the oil capacity in order for the to warm up faster due to owners not allowing a warm-up, hence those photos of scuffed Pistons. That said reduce the capacity reduce cooling ability to a degree. Has for me put all the oil you can into an oil/air cooled engine.

I am big boy, I can wait for a warm up on a big bore motor, hell I warm up yhr lawnmower... But I ain't doing the warranty work.

Who posted the disagree and what part are they disagreeing with?

 

[Keith Grey]

I hope that we do see a Vic based off the Scout, call it the Anti-Christ for all I care... I just don't think we will. No spy picks, no drawings, nada...

I hope I'm wrong but I would bet that the Octane is with the Water-Cooled Vision.

Personally, I believe whatever the Octane became will be revealed this Winter and the water cooled 2 cyl power train will be the baby brother to the future Victory Powerplant.

Why not? They still sell Indian 111 if folks just got to have an air cooled V-Twin, and it lets them morph Vic into the real performance/ tech side of the house.

 

[Keith Grey]

Who posted the disagree and what part are they disagreeing with?

MDAllen,,,,

Sorry Watertown! I broke under interrogation,,,,

 

[Flyboy]

MDAllen,,,,

Sorry Watertown! I broke under interrogation,,,,

Thanks as I suspected, but lost the trail somewhere, now to figure what part and It was, it is obviously the oil part. Damn, hate to go hunting for the clip explaining the oil reduction logic... Guess he just likes the air principle.

You are released as a principle as you clearly self disclosed knowledge and open for reward from X-stoppers...

 

[iabob]

I suspect that the new bike will be the Victory version of the Scout.
I may well look like the pictures attached and will probably have the same basic engine as the Scout, after all it was original intended that Victory would release the water cooled version first. The Indian got the engine to put in the Scout and capitalize on the the new brand name.
View attachment 8440 View attachment 8441 View attachment 8442 View attachment 8443 View attachment 8444 View attachment 8445 View attachment 8446

This is one of four leaked pictures that Polaris registered design patents on prior to the release of the Scout. One of the four was a dead ringer for the Scout, the other three had a more modern edgy design, looked much more Victory-ish. Aside from the new Empulse it's kinda looking like Victory and Indian will have very similar bikes on the showroom floor. Tour, Bagger, Cruiser, mid size Cruiser.

 

[mister-g]

how about adjustable handle bars on the next vision, that should be an easy bonus feature to offer ! oh and back-up the rear tipovers a tad if you would please.

 

[mdallen]

MDAllen,,,,

Sorry Watertown! I broke under interrogation,,,,

I'm sorry for Watertown too. You should have just explained the list button...

 

[mdallen]

Thanks as I suspected, but lost the trail somewhere, now to figure what part and It was, it is obviously the oil part. Damn, hate to go hunting for the clip explaining the oil reduction logic... Guess he just likes the air principle.
You are released as a principle as you clearly self disclosed knowledge and open for reward from X-stoppers...

Having ridden a Vision for a few miles in hot weather, my point is that with all of the body panels all Vic needs to do is figure out how to get some more air onto the engine. I get that they reduced the amout of oil to get the temp faster. Works awesome, from my experience with the steel framed bikes, no as well with all of the Vision's body work. I think it makes more sense to get more air than go to a liquid-cooled redesign as I don't think in the near future Vic will be able to crack into the GW market share. They need to start with the Scout and figure out how to being liquid-cooled to a touring bike in a package that will blow away the industry. I don't think they have the knowledge yet. They'll get one shot, if it's not right it will take years to reset.

 

[Flyboy]

Having ridden a Vision for a few miles in hot weather, my point is that with all of the body panels all Vic needs to do is figure out how to get some more air onto the engine. I get that they reduced the amout of oil to get the temp faster. Works awesome, from my experience with the steel framed bikes, no as well with all of the Vision's body work. I think it makes more sense to get more air than go to a liquid-cooled redesign as I don't think in the near future Vic will be able to crack into the GW market share. They need to start with the Scout and figure out how to being liquid-cooled to a touring bike in a package that will blow away the industry. I don't think they have the knowledge yet. They'll get one shot, if it's not right it will take years to reset.

I agree as I have been thinking of adding a CCT to keep the BW company and looking at the various air damming and flow diversions in front of the engine. I am concerned.

The ol steel frames oil temp will see 260 pretty quick in low flow conditions and fear the Tour Frame will be worse. You are confirming that, but the 106 is a nice mill. Since it appears with Indian success, like Keith has implied, it frees Victory to focus on performance and other things like electric. Hopefully other mills as well...

 

[Flyboy]

I'm sorry for Watertown too. You should have just explained the list button...

View attachment 8454

I checked a couple times with no luck, either blind or was hidden somehow. So Keith wanting to see what would happen and since he is part of the Vision Clan, assisted, Thanks Keith....

 

[Keith Grey]

Thanks as I suspected, but lost the trail somewhere, now to figure what part and It was, it is obviously the oil part. Damn, hate to go hunting for the clip explaining the oil reduction logic... Guess he just likes the air principle.

You are released as a principle as you clearly self disclosed knowledge and open for reward from X-stoppers...

Snitches get stitches!!!! but I'll take the 30 pieces of silver,,,,,,

 

[triumph900]

I agree with those who see a liquid cooled Small cruiser being added to the Vic line up. No matter what all the forum geniuses said about not selling well, it killed it for Indian w/ Scout and would do the same for Vic.

OTOH, if it comes in much over $12k it better be a Hammer/Vegas replacement with a large engine or it will not do as well as Scout.

Scout hit a perfect storm of tech, price point, and size.

Any bigger/$$$$ and Vic would need to be premiering its new replacement power plant for all models.

The Scout has ONE thing the Octane will never have, the word "Indian" on the tank. That alone was a huge driver of Scout sales IMO. Remember all of the spy shots and breathless articles about the "new liquid cooled Victory" that became the Scout? Lack of confidence in Victory to be able to represent the new bike strongly enough?

I've often wondered how Victorys would sell if they had "Indian" on the tank...

 

[Keith Grey]

The Scout has ONE thing the Octane will never have, the word "Indian" on the tank. That alone was a huge driver of Scout sales IMO. Remember all of the spy shots and breathless articles about the "new liquid cooled Victory" that became the Scout? Lack of confidence in Victory to be able to represent the new bike strongly enough?

I've often wondered how Victorys would sell if they had "Indian" on the tank...

True. And as a former Pirate I would say that is significant.

BUT, to the majority of the motorcycle market, that do not ride HD, that "Tradition & Heritage" marketing non-sense might as well be ducks quacking.

Time will tell, but I see 2 possible paths for Vic:

• New, smaller cruiser, water cooled, higher tech as precursor to an all water cooled line up
• Large, 1800cc or better, water cooled, replacement for the 106/6 boldly launched for one model (p.o.c.)

Management Teams being Group think in nature, I still think the former is very likely, the latter less so

Jmtc

 

[iabob]

The Scout has ONE thing the Octane will never have, the word "Indian" on the tank. That alone was a huge driver of Scout sales IMO. Remember all of the spy shots and breathless articles about the "new liquid cooled Victory" that became the Scout? Lack of confidence in Victory to be able to represent the new bike strongly enough?

I've often wondered how Victorys would sell if they had "Indian" on the tank...

I don't think this is true. Victory never applied for design patents with leaked drawings, Polaris did. Three of the pics looked very Victory like. One looked like it had fenders ripped strait off a 20's era Indian Scout. Do you really think Polaris was going to bring back Indian and NOT bring back the Scout? This Scout was never going to be a Victory, it was going to be the Scout all along. But, design departments do work on multiple projects. I believe the Scout was released first, doesn't mean another bike wasn't being created too, just means they haven't put it into production yet.

 

[triumph900]

I don't think this is true. Victory never applied for design patents with leaked drawings, Polaris did. Three of the pics looked very Victory like. One looked like it had fenders ripped strait off a 20's era Indian Scout. Do you really think Polaris was going to bring back Indian and NOT bring back the Scout? This Scout was never going to be a Victory, it was going to be the Scout all along. But, design departments do work on multiple projects. I believe the Scout was released first, doesn't mean another bike wasn't being created too, just means they haven't put it into production yet.

Quite honestly, I never thought about the Scout being an inevitable model in the Indian lineup, but I admit I'm not an Indian history buff. I figured that Indian was going to play heavy cruiser game only. If memory serves, virtually every picture and article called the leaked drawings "the new Victory", and I eagerly jumped on that bandwagon. I think everyone was surprised it was released as a Scout first.

 

[mjw930]

True. And as a former Pirate I would say that is significant.

BUT, to the majority of the motorcycle market, that do not ride HD, that "Tradition & Heritage" marketing non-sense might as well be ducks quacking.

Time will tell, but I see 2 possible paths for Vic:

• New, smaller cruiser, water cooled, higher tech as precursor to an all water cooled line up
• Large, 1800cc or better, water cooled, replacement for the 106/6 boldly launched for one model (p.o.c.)

Management Teams being Group think in nature, I still think the former is very likely, the latter less so

Jmtc

While I agree on the 2 possible paths for Victory I disagree that the badge issue is as irrelevant as you want to believe. Remember, people here on The VOG are not a representative cross section of the global motorcycle buying public, we are different in that we were willing to look past the badge and see the goodness in the Victory design and engineering.

It took Indian less than 2 years to surpass the total production of Victory in it's first decade. This simply fact proves that badging is more important than content. However, if you look at previous attempts to resurrect Indian the badge only goes so far so you better have pretty damn good content to back it up, which is what Polaris brought to the table.

IMHO Victory will survive BECAUSE of Indian, not in spite of it. Polaris can make financial sense of out their on road division and maintain the ~10K - 12K bikes per year Victory production level BECAUSE Indian will sell > 20K bikes per year. And lets not forget the surprise entry into the fold, the Slingshot which puts another 12K+ Polaris products on the road every year. I believe the FY16 projections are for somewhere close to 50,000 on road vehicles to be produced by Polaris. That's a 1000% increase from what they were doing a little over 5 years ago........

Initially, when Indian was bought I predicted Victory had a limited life span and would be absorbed into the Indian brand at some point. I believe the Polaris brass was looking at the same trajectory based on their initial desire to have stand alone Indian dealerships vs. Indian/Victory/Polaris dealers. That seemed to change when the dealer community pushed back and insisted on a cross brand model. The ability to bring them in the front door with the Indian brand but convert them to a Victory if they are looking for a more performance oriented, modern looking platform will save Victory in the long run and I praise Polaris management for adapting and understanding the market and not sticking with an HD dealer clone mentality with Indian.

 

[NorthernProducer]

While I agree on the 2 possible paths for Victory I disagree that the badge issue is as irrelevant as you want to believe. Remember, people here on The VOG are not a representative cross section of the global motorcycle buying public, we are different in that we were willing to look past the badge and see the goodness in the Victory design and engineering.

It took Indian less than 2 years to surpass the total production of Victory in it's first decade. This simply fact proves that badging is more important than content. However, if you look at previous attempts to resurrect Indian the badge only goes so far so you better have pretty damn good content to back it up, which is what Polaris brought to the table.

IMHO Victory will survive BECAUSE of Indian, not in spite of it. Polaris can make financial sense of out their on road division and maintain the ~10K - 12K bikes per year Victory production level BECAUSE Indian will sell > 20K bikes per year. And lets not forget the surprise entry into the fold, the Slingshot which puts another 12K+ Polaris products on the road every year. I believe the FY16 projections are for somewhere close to 50,000 on road vehicles to be produced by Polaris. That's a 1000% increase from what they were doing a little over 5 years ago........

Initially, when Indian was bought I predicted Victory had a limited life span and would be absorbed into the Indian brand at some point. I believe the Polaris brass was looking at the same trajectory based on their initial desire to have stand alone Indian dealerships vs. Indian/Victory/Polaris dealers. That seemed to change when the dealer community pushed back and insisted on a cross brand model. The ability to bring them in the front door with the Indian brand but convert them to a Victory if they are looking for a more performance oriented, modern looking platform will save Victory in the long run and I praise Polaris management for adapting and understanding the market and not sticking with an HD dealer clone mentality with Indian.

I tend to agree with your logic and probably would not have considered shopping Victory had I not bought a Polaris built Indian (though my experience with the first production run has not been stellar). When Victory was first introduced, I checked them out at an IMS event and was not impressed with the build quality or much else about the early models. Back then, I remember a test ride did not impress either. Returning to the present, if it wasn't for Polaris' promotion of Indian, I would not be considering a Victory now. My Indian dealer also sells Victory and has suggested I take another look at Victory. If (more likely, when) I move away from the Scout, the Victory might be my next bike. I do have to add that I was a bit disappointed to learn the Cross Road is no longer being offered as it appeared to be in the niche I would like to consider.

I am patient and look forward to a few test rides.

 

[iabob]

Quite honestly, I never thought about the Scout being an inevitable model in the Indian lineup, but I admit I'm not an Indian history buff. I figured that Indian was going to play heavy cruiser game only. If memory serves, virtually every picture and article called the leaked drawings "the new Victory", and I eagerly jumped on that bandwagon. I think everyone was surprised it was released as a Scout first.

Well now you can think everyone -1 lol. As a fan I had no doubt in my mind a Scout was coming. My hope was (is) to see a new Indian Four, but the Scout is as if not more legendary than the Chief. It just never had such an iconic appearance. What it did have: smaller, lighter, faster. It was the Sportster before there was a Sportster. a Sport bike before there was such a category. Sound familiar? And while I did notice the motorcycle media jumped to the conclusion that water cooled = modern therefore all four drawings must be a future Victory I noticed nothing in the design registrations that said anything other than Polaris, and as mentioned one of those drawings looked like the fenders were taken right off an old Scout.

 

[Ghostrider25]

Those drawings could have gone either way. I personally think they went from concept right to scout, meaning they were native to the Scout. I don't believe Polaris shifted gears and made that design a Scout - it was always gonna be a Scout.

But that's OK, because the Scout is thriving, and so will the Octane when it hits. I am absolutely convinced now more than ever that the Octane will be a slightly better, sportier and more technologically advanced version of that architecture and platform. If I was in the market for a Scout, I'd wait for the Octane, unless you like the tired old Indian heritage Shtick. Many do, and that's cool. I like looking forward...

Now, the whole V4 or water-cooled 4 (V or Inline, whatever) I am not so sure about now. I still think it's possible, but I am not as optimistic about it as I was a while ago. This new release dudd from Vic this year left me wondering. Besides the Octane, nothing else is gonna happen in 2016 as far as I can see. For me that's OK, because I am well-positioned. What it means for Vic's overall sales numbers for 2015/2016 is yet to be determined, but things could flatten out a bit. The Empulse - Meh. We'll see. They have a chance to do pretty well out here, but they better bring some accessories to the party. as is at $20K, well, meh...

 

[slickvic]

Think ........ Vegas with a slightly fatter front wheel. A water cooled version of the Scout motor and a much more laid back ride. It's coming. Don't ask how I know.

Not to bring up HD as comparison.
I for one am glad to see that Polaris is not just in the clothing and MC business. They are in the fun business. So much choice fr this company. From old style bikes to modern. From all terrain to road fun slingshots. Smart company. Just not going to happen overnight. So much has been accomplished so far.