VOG Forum banner

Harley-Davidson Confirms 500cc Model On The Way, Says Electric Harleys Not That Far-Fetched

2.5K views 22 replies 15 participants last post by  vegas_8-ball  
#1 ·
#22 ·
mjw930 said:
Of course there wouldn't be riots and your comparison to the market crash and depression that followed is great hyperbole but is irrelevant.
People buy Harley's with their heart, not their mind. Stop trying to use logic, that doesn't apply with a Harley buyer. This is a purely discretionary spend. People plopping down thousands for a Harley excuse the fact that what they are buying could be had for thousands less if they shopped an Asian dealership because it's an AMERICAN MOTORCYCLE.
It doesn't really matter, I doubt Harley has any intention of importing these. The India plant exists for the same reason as the Brazil plant they have had for years, to evade import tarifs on completed motorcycles in large, regional markets. The fact they may build a reagional specific bike for those markets is just good business sense. GM and Ford do the same thing but learned their lesson long ago with things like the Festiva and Geo, that importing them is a recipe for disaster.
Are the two situations the same, no but that's the point. HDs getting imported, after the purists get over it move on, people will buy them, American or not. Unfortunately calling a HD an American motorcycle is already a relative term. I can't remember what percentage of parts are imported but it's over 60%. But like you say people buy them because it's a HD. The percentage of imported parts is only going to increase to keep costs down. In order to maintain an affordable MSRP will HD be forced to move to Mexico? Or will people pay $30000 for a Softail? I certainly hope that there will always be American made HDs, Indains and Vics. I hope there are more startups too! But I'm not willing to pay $20000 for a Vegas.
 
#21 ·

mdallen said:
Lol, like what riots over an imported HD? Look at what was tolerated after the market crash a few years back. How many billions were paid out to the banks and the corporations? But an imported HD will make it hit the fan? Purists on the forums will ***** and moan while wearing their made in china swag, lol! Price sells, bottom line in a consumer economy. Will they do it? I don't think so, but I'm wrong frequently.
Of course there wouldn't be riots and your comparison to the market crash and depression that followed is great hyperbole but is irrelevant.
People buy Harley's with their heart, not their mind. Stop trying to use logic, that doesn't apply with a Harley buyer. This is a purely discretionary spend. People plopping down thousands for a Harley excuse the fact that what they are buying could be had for thousands less if they shopped an Asian dealership because it's an AMERICAN MOTORCYCLE.
It doesn't really matter, I doubt Harley has any intention of importing these. The India plant exists for the same reason as the Brazil plant they have had for years, to evade import tarifs on completed motorcycles in large, regional markets. The fact they may build a reagional specific bike for those markets is just good business sense. GM and Ford do the same thing but learned their lesson long ago with things like the Festiva and Geo, that importing them is a recipe for disaster.
 
#19 ·
mjw930 said:
Maybe in Canada, Asia and to a lesser extent Europe but rest assured, the sh%t would hit the fan big time here in the US.
Lol, like what riots over an imported HD? Look at what was tolerated after the market crash a few years back. How many billions were paid out to the banks and the corporations? But an imported HD will make it hit the fan? Purists on the forums will ***** and moan while wearing their made in china swag, lol! Price sells, bottom line in a consumer economy. Will they do it? I don't think so, but I'm wrong frequently.
 
#15 ·
mjw930 said:
It's unlikely the 500cc Harley built in India would be sold in the US for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which is the contract they have with the AFL-CIO and other various unions. I'm also sure the made in India stamp on the bike would pretty much doom it's fate with the faithful regardless the fact that the clothing and accessories are made offshore. American consumers are a hypocritical lot, we hang our hats on made in America yet have catapulted Walmart to the largest retail company in the world, a company that singlehandedly keeps many 3rd world economies afloat. If the bike is a success and the market analysis they do says they could sell a few thousand a year it's likely they would spin up excess plant capacity in KC or York and run a line building them here. Another likely thing is they may bring enough of them over to replace the aging Buells in their training fleet to gauge public opinion and since they wouldn't be for resale they could probably bypass the union contracts.
Not to mention since the bike is being built for the Indian (and probably Asian) markets, I'm guessing getting EPA certification has not been a priority.
 
#14 ·

"I'm not the H-D cheer leading section of The Vog. But I can't and won't deny Harley-Davidson their clear leadership status in the area of brand loyalty and responding to their customer base".

I couldn't agree more. You have to give credit where credit is due. And nobody market's motorcyclingbetter than H-D.
 
#12 ·
It's unlikely the 500cc Harley built in India would be sold in the US for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which is the contract they have with the AFL-CIO and other various unions. I'm also sure the made in India stamp on the bike would pretty much doom it's fate with the faithful regardless the fact that the clothing and accessories are made offshore. American consumers are a hypocritical lot, we hang our hats on made in America yet have catapulted Walmart to the largest retail company in the world, a company that singlehandedly keeps many 3rd world economies afloat. If the bike is a success and the market analysis they do says they could sell a few thousand a year it's likely they would spin up excess plant capacity in KC or York and run a line building them here. Another likely thing is they may bring enough of them over to replace the aging Buells in their training fleet to gauge public opinion and since they wouldn't be for resale they could probably bypass the union contracts.
 
#11 ·
bigfoot said:
Let's not forget the "special deal" Harley got from our government.

Duties (on imported motorcycles) were to be raised to 45 percent the first year (1983), with the duty declining steadily over each following year until reaching 10 percent in the fifth and final year of protection (1988).

http://www.selectsmart.com/DISCUSS/read.php?16,714764,714771
WHAT? Whoa hey hold on there a second Big One, our government is not in the business of picking winners and losers they would never do such a thing, certainly NOT in the Golden Era, I mean in the 80's. Lol, just some belated Monday morning fun folks :) But yes, that is part of the point. I've heard a lot of internet chatter of the faithful criticizing Polaris for touting Indian's heritage when it hasn't been "continuous" for 110 years like Harley. But Harley got government contracts, government favors (taxing the sh*t out of the competition above), government loans when no one else would loan to them. AMF also came to the rescue as did the investment group that bought it after AMF had enough. Their foray into non-bikes was a failure, their foray into sport bikes was a failure, their foray into mergers and acquisitions was a failure. Just because I'm not a fan doesn't make me a hater though. I do wish them well, hope they sell a ton of bikes and hire new workers and give their old ones raises. If that pipe dream became reality (not under this CEO but in the future it could happen) it would be good for all of us. So yes, I do wish them well and I do like bikes, all bikes. My eyes just kind of roll into the back of my head a little when I see H-D put up on a pedestal as some kind of pinnacle of American business acumen and dominance when the thing they seem to do best is luck their way out of repeated failures.
 
#10 ·

Marketing, Brand Loyalty and Cult Like Status. Show me a brand in the powersports industry (or any industry for that matter) with better marketing, brand loyalty or a cult like status than Harley-Davidson. Apple computers comes close in some regards as their logo is extremely well known throughout most of the world.

Clearly the H-D crowd doesn't care about H-D products being made off shore. The Motor Company makes more money from it's clothing and accessories lines than they do the actual motorcycles themselves. I'd guess a very small percentage of those accessories or clothing items are Made In The USA. It doesn't stop their growth or market domination in the segments they compete in at all. Even while many of the heard stand on their "American" brand.

How many non Harley-Davidson owners have a item or items in their homes that say Harley-Davidson on it? Now compare that percentage of the population to Honda, Victory, Kawasaki, Yamaha etc. How many of those same companies do and have borrowed heavily from H-D designs only to fall short in the sales arena. Their products have simply become known as Harley clones. That's why I appreciate many of the Victory models so much. They're not trying to emulate H-D, they truly built a better design in many cases. Different in form and function.

I read where the 500cc is a product made in India for that market. But don't think for a minute that bike, or something similar to it isn't destined for the North American market at some point. I agree that all of the other motorcycle manufacturers build and design some superior product compared to Harley-Davidson. It doesn't seem to matter as much as you'd think it should because look at the sales figures. The technilogical advantages of other brands doesn't stop the loyal H-D customers from staying with them. Yes, I know, many Victory owners were once H-D owners.

The bailout. Sure, it was a mess and kept H-D from going under. They were being run by poor management. Prior to that and since then, they've mostly been a motorcycle and marketing comapny run by motorcyclists and marketing people. Sounds so easy and common sensical but it's more rare than you'd think.

Look, I've only one H-D and kept it a short time. I'm no expert on The Motor Company. I don't even have a business degree. But I've been on a motorcycle since I was about 5 years old and have paid attention to the market since then. I'm not the H-D cheer leading section of The Vog. But I can't and won't deny Harley-Davidson their clear leadership status in the area of brand loyalty and responding to their customer base. Many of my friends have Harley's. The same or similar items they poke at other brands at are completely ignored by them and their own motorcycle. H-D owners, for the most part, not 100% of course, give H-D a pass on most things while holding other brands to a much higher level of scrutiny.

Anyway, like I said, I'm no business, marketing or manufacturing expert. But I can read a business plan and sales results clearly. Enough to recognize and appreciate a company that knows what they're doing.

Have an awesome day.
 
#9 ·

iabob said:
And to add to that how many times has Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, and BMW been run into the ground and needed a corporate buyout or government bailout to survive? That's 110 years of knowing the industry better than anyone right there! Lol.
Let's not forget the "special deal" Harley got from our government.

Duties (on imported motorcycles) were to be raised to 45 percent the first year (1983), with the duty declining steadily over each following year until reaching 10 percent in the fifth and final year of protection (1988).

http://www.selectsmart.com/DISCUSS/read.php?16,714764,714771
 
#8 ·

Chicago_Mark said:
Congratulations to Harley-Davidson for once again proving they know the market better than any other motorcycle company. How awesome is it to start young people off with a small and affordable product. Then they have larger and different models for the future of the riders riding career. Simple, effective and certainly a winning strategy. Ask your local or favorite Victory dealer if they'd like something smaller and more affordable to compete with the various H-D Sportster models. If they have a clue, they'll want to and likely they've been asking Victory to offer something to compete in that market segment. Harley-Davidson hasn't been around for 110 years by making too many poor decisions. They're one of the most successful brands in the world for a reason. They know their market and they listen to and react to their current and potential customers.
Yeah....That and import protections and cash from the Federal Government.
 
#7 ·

Chicago_Mark said:
Congratulations to Harley-Davidson for once again proving they know the market better than any other motorcycle company. How awesome is it to start young people off with a small and affordable product.
The article stated that the 500cc Harley will be built and sold in India, not the USA.
 
#6 ·
bikerbob said:
Why does Harley know the industry better than anyone? Honda, Kawasaki, Yahama to name a few, have been doing this forever.
And to add to that how many times has Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, and BMW been run into the ground and needed a corporate buyout or government bailout to survive? That's 110 years of knowing the industry better than anyone right there! Lol.
 
#5 ·

Chicago_Mark said:
Congratulations to Harley-Davidson for once again proving they know the market better than any other motorcycle company. How awesome is it to start young people off with a small and affordable product. Then they have larger and different models for the future of the riders riding career. Simple, effective and certainly a winning strategy. Ask your local or favorite Victory dealer if they'd like something smaller and more affordable to compete with the various H-D Sportster models. If they have a clue, they'll want to and likely they've been asking Victory to offer something to compete in that market segment. Harley-Davidson hasn't been around for 110 years by making too many poor decisions. They're one of the most successful brands in the world for a reason. They know their market and they listen to and react to their current and potential customers.
Why does Harley know the industry better than anyone? Honda, Kawasaki, Yahama to name a few, have been doing this forever.
 
#2 ·
Congratulations to Harley-Davidson for once again proving they know the market better than any other motorcycle company. How awesome is it to start young people off with a small and affordable product. Then they have larger and different models for the future of the riders riding career. Simple, effective and certainly a winning strategy. Ask your local or favorite Victory dealer if they'd like something smaller and more affordable to compete with the various H-D Sportster models. If they have a clue, they'll want to and likely they've been asking Victory to offer something to compete in that market segment. Harley-Davidson hasn't been around for 110 years by making too many poor decisions. They're one of the most successful brands in the world for a reason. They know their market and they listen to and react to their current and potential customers.