[Half_Crazy]

I didn't know of victory till I found some place in the middle of nowhere... My friends didn't know about victory till me riding one In front of them.

Most of us knew about Victory by 1999... It's not the fault of Victory that you and your friends live under a rock. :angel4:

 

[Half_Crazy]

I know nobody would buy Victorys but I think they were the better bike.

Victory, as a brand, was onto something. They were well on the way. What changed? They started trying to compete with or even to BE Harley... that killed it.

Most of us understand that if we want a Harley, we know where to get one and it's NOT at a Victory dealer or a Yamaha dealer or a Kawasaki dealer. You wanna sell motorcycles, sell MOTORCYCLES not Harley wannabe bikes. Harley already sells Harleys, you need to sell what they can't.

Victory promised us that we would get exactly that... Innovation not imitation... but they lied to us. When all their advertising was directly comparing their bikes to Harley, yeah, that was a mistake, especially when they stretched the truth.

Yeah, all except that V-Rod will stomp a freakin' mudhole in a Hammer's ass. "Hammer has 35% more torque!" but they neglect to mention that the V-Rod makes 44% more horsepower and runs 11.80s...

They should have left that alone... mistake.

 

[Half_Crazy]

There were several... I know you remember "Fuel it"...

 

[Half_Crazy]

where would this 3:16 advert be played on?

There is a channel on Direct TV where they will play ads for ONE company on a loop for like 72 hours. I have seen the "all Victory all the time" channel more than once.

These vids play on a TV in the dealership on a loop.

These vids are used in internet ads on sites like this one.

 

[Half_Crazy]

Why does it have to be one or the other? Why couldn't Victory build both this:

View attachment 492107

Inverted forks, 18" wheels, 180mm rear tire, fenders that actually work and lend themselves to the addition of large bags....

AND this:

View attachment 492109

16" spoke wheels, wide white walls, 140mm rear tire, flat paint, and apehangers…

?????????????????????

Is it possible to appeal to both the style conscious AND the performance oriented by having both models built on the same basic platform? No need to decide who you are marketing to if you have a model for everyone.

Car companies do it... these are the same platform from the same factory but appeal to different buyers...

Fiat 500X
View attachment 492111

Jeep Renegade
View attachment 492113

I will bet you have seen advertising for both... Both sell.

 

[Half_Crazy]

The argument can be made that they were made on the same basic chassis. Same frame and powertrain, different tins, forks, wheels etc.. Price difference between the last Pin in 2012 and the last Highball in 2017 was basically 2k less for the Highball. You got cheaper forks and suspension on the Highball along with no chrome which is expensive.

2012 was the last year of the Kingpin and the first year of the HighBall… Trying to cash in on the market that is traditionally HD's market. It didn't work. The business plan was to cater to HD's customer base. Imitation rather than innovation.

I was expecting the Kingpin to return with an aluminum backbone (core chassis like a Cross or Vision) and a little restyling refining... you know, like they were telling us they were going to continue to advance.

With Indian they basically adopted the HD nostalgia motorcycle business plan. Hell, that market is dying a slow death... so what now? They hanging their hat on the Scout?

 

[Half_Crazy]

Plenty of sub 750cc options out there from other manufacturers as well for WAY less than a new HD or Indian.

That's the thing... that market is saturated with choices.

HD has that policy where if you buy a Sportster, if you upgrade to a bigger Harley they will give you 100% of what you paid for the Sportster on trade-in. You can have zero depreciation on your starter bike.

 

[Half_Crazy]

I actually have a softer take in the demise of the Kingpin. Obviously I think it's still one of the best bikes out there but I kind of understand what happened to it. Go back to 2004-2008 time frame, it was a huge hit. And in 2007-2008 the Kingpin Tour was Victory's touring bike, the V92TC was disco'd in 06 and the Vision didn't come out until 08. Which was also when the recession hit. Now I'm making an assumption that development costs were ammatorized or something because at this time Kingpins were nowhere near as cheap as Gunners were a few years later, in 2007 my new Pin with some options was over 16,000 dollars.

So fast forward to 2010-2011. For relatively little more than the price of a Kingpin you can get a Cross Roads, a little more still and you can get an XC. Inverted forks, suspension travel, excellent handling...everything that existed in the Kingpin that makes it a better bike than other cruisers also exists in the XR, plus big bags and windshield. At marp 12,999 the KP would have stayed, at 14 or 15,999 people went XR or XC.

That's a very good point. Hence the Kingpin 8-Ball at a lower cost.

I feel that the Kingpin went unappreciated by the buying public. With that name and what the bike offered, that should have been their 'convertible' do it all bike (like HD's Sport Glide or the older Dyna Switchback and even older Dyna convertible).

 

[Half_Crazy]

I was shocked this never happened. It seemed like a no brainer to me, take an XR and design a new rear end for removable bags, voila' second gen Kingpin.

XR platform is too heavy. If they could keep the weight around 700 with accessories on it... well...

 

[Half_Crazy]

As much as I am sure it will not be popular opinion, I for one like the scout Bobber. I wouldn't mind picking one up for the wife. Poseidon and I saw one near the BRP a few months back and it was a good looking and nice sounding machine. Yes it is a shame what happened to Victory. But it is over and done with at this point. Can't change it. So it's onward and upward.

Should I tire of the Vegas (Don't see that for a pretty long while) It will be on my hit list of potential candidates.

The bigger question is will you spend your money on a product sold by the same people who dropped Victory and left you with a bike worth like 1/2 what it would have been?

Personally, I will not send any money Polaris' way... they won't get me again.

 

[Half_Crazy]

The Scout Bobber is not a hideous looking machine. In fact, it's really not bad at all! I was careful in my choice of words when describing the Indian product because even though they do nothing for me, they are decent machines. And if you fit on one, it might just be a great bike for you. I look absolutely ridiculous on one because they are so small... or perhaps I should say I am too big for it! And that is the kind of machine that the buying public seems to be into these days. Big heavy touring machines and cruisers are not in fashion. And with the FTR 1200 coming, Indian could be well positioned to grow their sales numbers. We'll see how it plays out.

Harley would be well advised to keep their eyes on this market trend and get something going to offer other than the same old thing.

You may have heard of the XR-1200 and the XR-1000 before it... neither sold worth a crap.

View attachment 492405

View attachment 492407

 

[Half_Crazy]

I don't really care what my bike is worth. I love it and probably would never sell it. So resale means nothing if I never sell it. I bought my bike to ride not to sell. I'm not buying stocks.

We are in 100% agreement there... however, F**K POLARIS. I wouldn't give them the sweat off my balls if they were dying of thirst. They lied to us about the direction they were taking the company and then canned the whole thing. Buy another bike from Polaris? Fat chance.

When we can't get the parts to keep these bikes running (we are already screwed on accessories) we will care a lot more about the value of our bikes (zero since they're not running) and they won't have any value even to us if we can't ride them.

 

[Half_Crazy]

Oh yeah. I really dug the XR. I could have ridden one of those. You have heard me talk about how I used to work the races and have watched these babies run. They were friggin' cool. Just another example of Harley being held hostage by their own rider base. I wonder, if the XR were available today, would younger riders buy them? Especially if you could get the Vance & Hines kit for it? Seriously man, those things ran pretty good!

They BEGGED HD to import that 1200X but when they did, no one bought them. My friend has one we trade bikes sometimes. It is very... let's call it... unimpressive.

 

[Half_Crazy]

Yeah, the thing is kinda heavy and it has a couple other faults. But the kit really wakes it up. And there wasn't a huge amount in it.

The bike is well done up. It used to belong to Rusty at SM City, so it's definitely not stock.
"The fastest stock Harley ever made"... yeah, that ain't sayin' much, is it.

 

[Half_Crazy]

Agree people always spouting off about "oh wow if I could get one of those I would buy one"...they rarely do. If all these talkers who want a bike like this or that would talk more with their wallets then their pie holes maybe they would make them and keep them around.

I hear all this banter about the OEM Indian Flat Tracker type bike as of late and some folks saying it would be a bike that would sell....I hope those folks are more full of purchasing intentions than hot air if they do decide to make that bike available.

Sounds cool in concept... but is a flat-tracker/street tracker really practical? Will anyone want that as their only bike? Do the younger millennials and later kids know what the f**k flat track racing is? I'd bet sales are abysmal.

I like to watch flat track, hell I've done similar racing, but I don't want a flat tracker as my daily driver.

 

[Half_Crazy]

Well I didn't buy it to sell it and since I only paid $6250 for my Vegas with only 7K on the clock, I'm pretty OK with that.

Not really looking to argue HC... Just don't feel like I got ripped off. Though given my initial investment was so low it makes up for any loss. Then again, I only buy used bikes so I guess something like this just wouldn't really bother me much.

In a few years would I consider an Indian? Sure. If the price is right on a used one.

I'm not arguing with you... It's called a "conversation".

There are guys reading this who paid top dollar for a brand new Victory Magnum and before they made the first payment, the announcement was made that Victory was closing the doors. If you were one of those guys, you would probably feel differently (like a kick in the nuts).

Then there's guys like me. I bought one and I waited patiently for all the great things to come that I was promised. I was a loyal Victory guy and did whatever I could to promote the brand. My friends and I entered sanctioned drag racing events and placed in the top 3 every time. I went to biker places and put the bike right up front. I had the local HD hot shots talking a huge line of smack... the ones who challenged me now have two cracks in their ass... the one they were born with and the one I gave them.

I showed many riders that you can be one of the cool kids without swallowing the HD line of bullsh!t.

How was I rewarded? I was orphaned by those I supported.

 

[Half_Crazy]

I get all of that. This is still not bad news for Indian.

It isn't? If everyone orphaned by Polaris when Victory closed feels like "F**k Polaris, I won't buy their products", that's not a bad thing?
Indian is already up against 1) The nostalgia and heritage thing is fake. Since 1901 my ass. 2) The Indian name is associated with 'swing and a miss' unsuccessful brand revival attempts and Polaris already failed at Victory, so that track record thing looms in the foreground. 3) Many folks think the Indian styling/lighting is over the top gaudy-looking. 4) The prices are too high for most ordinary motorcyclists to swallow. Even the Scout, since a bike in that class of motorcycle can be had way cheaper that will far outperform the Scout. 5) The nostalgic/heritage market is dying off. 6) Millennials and later are simply not into motorcycles like we were because they can't put their f**king phones down long enough to ride one and couldn't afford a motorcycle if they were into them.

So what's the good news? Will the little flat-trackers save the day? I just don't see it.

I used to hope for great success for the Polaris motorcycle effort. Now? Not so much.

 

[Half_Crazy]

In NYC there are teachers who are unfit to be in a classroom but it takes years sometimes to fire them for cause due to the Union so they have them go to a "special classroom" where they sit at the desks like students all day. They can't go home or anywhere else. To get paid they have to be in the "classroom" until they are finally terminated.

Now one would think these unfit teachers would find other work but I guess the pay and benefits are so good; it's worth it to them to just sit there reading or whatever they do all day. Maybe they play poker or something with all that easy money they get.

That is some bad news for Indian....

 

[Half_Crazy]

How do you have a clue what was going on as far as Victory's profitability is concerned?

Maybe the same way you know they were losing money....

Polaris releases quarterly financials just like everyone else.

Now they have a winner and a chance to for once do well in the street motorcycle market. I'm sure as Victory becomes a distant memory to the few people who actually even know they existed nobody but a select passionate few will give a rat's ass.

Oh, this must be those alternative facts people talk about....

 

[Half_Crazy]

If HD wins and Indian goes out of business we are all doomed.

It'll never work!
I just know it won't!
We're doomed!