[Ariesnc]

Good point. I don't consider that bashing . I have no problem pointing out Victory as far as lack of performance, etc. I'm not a so called fanboy, lol. I just beleive in stating facts. My buddies and I do this all the time and they always come back with the resale value crap. I tell them to line it up and none of them will take me up on that. I hope Victory does unveil a new motor from the ground up. It would be great to see what numbers it will put out.

 

[randy.dixon]

Seems like emissions has the 106 strapped down, or vic does it cause people like to upgrade.

 

[Half_Crazy]

I almost bought a Harley before Christmas... I guess I would have been a sheep too had I done that.

If one of us chooses a Harley, good for him. I know... there are the typical HD sheeple out there and we all get a good laugh at the 500 mile a year guy with a HD shirt from every dealer on the planet riding around in his Toyota pick-up with the giant bar & shield in the back window. People who ride a HARLEY because IT'S A HARLEY and they desperately wanna be one of the cool kids.

But... we kinda know each other in here... Sure, there REALLY ARE good reasons to choose a Harley. I won't beat anybody up for it. Hell, when guys post in here about being on the fence between a Harley and a Vic... I usually say "Get the Harley".

Victory is not for everybody. I get that. If you don't love it, buy something else. No skin off my ass.

On the performance side... if you face off with a Harley and he takes your lunch money, don't be surprised. It's not hard to build a fast HD. There are definitely some ass-kickin' Harleys in my neighborhood... it'd be a crying shame for your big, bad, 106" Victory to get spanked by a little 98" twin cam... but I can arrange that for ya. The 110" bikes I have seen get tuned lately have made 100 HP without cams and it's hard to get that out of a 106 Vic without cams... so I wouldn't go talkin' too much smack until ya know...

 

[2edgesword]

Good point. I don't consider that bashing . I have no problem pointing out Victory as far as lack of performance, etc. I'm not a so called fanboy, lol. I just beleive in stating facts. My buddies and I do this all the time and they always come back with the resale value crap. I tell them to line it up and none of them will take me up on that. I hope Victory does unveil a new motor from the ground up. It would be great to see what numbers it will put out.

Anyone that does a minimal amount of research can't avoid the numbers or the fact that the 106 is a superior engine versus the 103. That said you don't ride an engine. The engine is one element (an important one) in the total scheme of things involved in making a decision about buying a particular motorcycle. Some of those issues are based in emotion and with some individuals it's 90% emotion. When I was 21 years old I made a lot of decisions based on emotion. If facing the same decision at 21 years old (Gunner, Highball or Street Bob), with very high emotions wanting my first Victory, I would have probably thrown rational thinking and any sense of financial responsibility out the window a went ahead with the deal on the Gunner or Highball. But 21 is a far distant, four kids, fifteen grandkids and two great grandkids (one in the oven), memory and the rational side of me couldn't get past the trade-in issues.

I don't know about the history of trade values on HD's versus Vics. I got a good deal on the trade-in and the new bike from the Harley dealer. I'm not sure if the same deal could be made this year given what I've read about the huge inventory of used motorcycles they have on hand. At some point the cost of having that inventory is going to hurt and hurt bad, especially if the economy continues on the track it's been on since the start of this year. O.k., I ramble on...

With respect to many if not most buyers, most are going to get a bike with a stock engine and at the most go stage 1. Price wise the 106 bikes are typically going to be the better deal but you're still going to have buyers that are going to pay the extra to get the 110, with all the "stuff" that comes with buying a Harley (importance of which is a personal matter), over the 106.

I think the guys that have the know how, desire and dollars to do major upgrades, and understand the potential of the 106 versus the 110, may go for the 106 because in the end, after all the modifications that can be done are done, the 106 is going to sport the better numbers and performance they are looking for. I leave that stuff for HC and the other guys that really know what they're talking about to discuss while I sit on the sidelines, listen and learn.

One last comment, so there is no misunderstanding (not by you or most) let me reiteration a point for the internet psychoanalysis on the forum, I like Victory motorcycles but nothing in what I've written should be interpreted by those internet psychoanalysis as I don't like Harley's or I'm not happy with my Street Bob or that I really, really, deep down inside my subconscious mind, begrudge the fact that I had to "settle" for a Street Bob.

 

[Half_Crazy]

you don't ride an engine.

Ummm.... It's a MOTORcycle. It kinda IS all about the MOTOR.

That said, Harley motors have a lot of 'character'. With the Victory the power the engine produces doesn't make up for the rangy-bangy nature of the engine (mechanical noise and loud shifting trans). The Harley "feels" strong at low revs.

Look NONE of these bikes are powerful in stock form, and most people don't care... they just cruise... so for most owners it's a moot point.

 

[catwrench59]

It kinda IS all about the MOTOR

Well HC that is a bit contradictory to your own previous statements when considering the Harley before. There is a lot more to the total package than the engine. If not for your 100 in 120 mph out curve story you may well have been on the Dyna However even with all the suspension up grades the Dyna just didn't handle that corner like your Kingpin.

Now here's where I'll bash Victory. When they bored the 92 out to 100 and then when they stroked it to 106 this just so happened to be about the same time Harley went from 88 to 96 to 103. Coincidence? BUT, Victory hardly made any gains in power! When they went from 92 to 100 they reduced the valve and cam, and they lowered compression on the 106.

Bob I totally agree. Quit blaming the EPA if Harley can improve during the same time frame as Victory went almost backwards it isn't the EPA. I had a 03 92in.with very light mods and a stage 1 100 in.Vegas. I now have a 2012 106 with VM1 Dr cams, PTW, Lloyds filter, D&D wrapped exhaust and PCV. I do realize my previous bikes were lighter. However I think they both ran as strong as the 106 and the trans was no louder if as loud. I see no reason why Victory can't refine the 106 With the old 92" heads smooth out and quite the trans and improve the clutch. With very minimal investment they could be leaving the factory with a powertrain that not only Harley but the Japanese would envy.

 

[Half_Crazy]

Well HC that is a bit contradictory to your own previous statements when considering the Harley before. There is a lot more to the total package than the engine. If not for your 100 in 120 mph out curve story you may well have been on the Dyna However even with all the suspension up grades the Dyna just didn't handle that corner like your Kingpin.

Yes, the package as a whole is important... and the engine is 50% of that. If you had the greatest chassis ever and an engine that lacked any character or visceral appeal, it would still be hard to love the bike.

Let me think of an example... OK...
Honda Goldwing. Really happenin' touring package. The engine is nice... so is my refrigerator... but I don't love my refrigerator, it's just an appliance. If Harley could match the Goldwing chassis... and their V-Twin left the factory with 95/104 at the rear tire... THAT would be the package.

I see no reason why Victory can't refine the 106 with the old 92" heads smooth out and quiet the trans and improve the clutch. With very minimal investment they could be leaving the factory with a powertrain that not only Harley but the Japanese would envy.

Agreed. Not only COULD they... but we should EXPECT THEM TO.
Victory HAS the chassis. If the engine was refined in character and left the crate with Goldwing power... They would have the MOTORcycle that riders like us are looking for. They also need to address some of the fine details like wiring and finishes, but that is all secondary to the 'package'.

Polaris had the opportunity with Indian to really set the bar, starting with a blank sheet of paper. What did they build? 73 hp and 101 tq from 111 cubic inches. Harley makes better numbers per cubic inch than that with a V-Twin and so does Victory and Yamaha. Disappointing...

 

[slickvic]

yup CVO coast more and when selling it you get 89% of your money back.
not going to happen with the Vic

That may be true with a new CVO for a whill anyway. The traded in CVO/Sceaming Eagles that sit on the lots here just sit. Demographics I guess. These folks want the latest and greatest. (BRAGGIN RIGHTS)

 

[kaitiff]

Back in the day, making 1 HP per cu in was a good running motor, at least in cars. I mean, you didn't usually have to blueprint it to get there, but you did have to do some work, and do it right. I felt the same way about my vic. It was pretty trivial and cheap to get that 1 for 1 on my 100". You can do it on an HD too.. but it will cost you 2 or maybe even 3x as much and not be as dependable from what I've seen.

Vic has taken the easy path IMO. They could get more out of the 106 Freedom, it's there for the taking, but they've caved in to the EPA etc. Even tho I think they could easily make more power if they upgraded their fuel injection system I guess they don't feel the need to do so. Add wide band sensors to loop and upgrade the ECU and they could make the power AND meet emissions. Instead of doing that, they've gone whole hog into the water cooled and electric arena. I guess it makes sense, those pathways have more of a future. I still think the oil cooled motor could have a lot longer life and kick the snot out of anybody else's twin, but they'd have to want to do it.

 

[Muzza]

Anyone that does a minimal amount of research can't avoid the numbers or the fact that the 106 is a superior engine versus the 103. That said you don't ride an engine. The engine is one element (an important one) in the total scheme of things involved in making a decision about buying a particular motorcycle. Some of those issues are based in emotion and with some individuals it's 90% emotion. When I was 21 years old I made a lot of decisions based on emotion. If facing the same decision at 21 years old (Gunner, Highball or Street Bob), with very high emotions wanting my first Victory, I would have probably thrown rational thinking and any sense of financial responsibility out the window a went ahead with the deal on the Gunner or Highball. But 21 is a far distant, four kids, fifteen grandkids and two great grandkids (one in the oven), memory and the rational side of me couldn't get past the trade-in issues.

I don't know about the history of trade values on HD's versus Vics. I got a good deal on the trade-in and the new bike from the Harley dealer. I'm not sure if the same deal could be made this year given what I've read about the huge inventory of used motorcycles they have on hand. At some point the cost of having that inventory is going to hurt and hurt bad, especially if the economy continues on the track it's been on since the start of this year. O.k., I ramble on...

With respect to many if not most buyers, most are going to get a bike with a stock engine and at the most go stage 1. Price wise the 106 bikes are typically going to be the better deal but you're still going to have buyers that are going to pay the extra to get the 110, with all the "stuff" that comes with buying a Harley (importance of which is a personal matter), over the 106.

I think the guys that have the know how, desire and dollars to do major upgrades, and understand the potential of the 106 versus the 110, may go for the 106 because in the end, after all the modifications that can be done are done, the 106 is going to sport the better numbers and performance they are looking for. I leave that stuff for HC and the other guys that really know what they're talking about to discuss while I sit on the sidelines, listen and learn.

One last comment, so there is no misunderstanding (not by you or most) let me reiteration a point for the internet psychoanalysis on the forum, I like Victory motorcycles but nothing in what I've written should be interpreted by those internet psychoanalysis as I don't like Harley's or I'm not happy with my Street Bob or that I really, really, deep down inside my subconscious mind, begrudge the fact that I had to "settle" for a Street Bob.

 

[Half_Crazy]

Here is a local bike that is up for sale. It is a very nice looking 2012 CVO street glide. Add says " 110 with fueling 630 cams, S&S lifters and pushrods, heads ported, polished and decked to increase compression. EVO industries 49 tooth clutch basket to lower gearing. MGS true duals. Power Vision programmer with custom dyno tune."

A couple of things on this...

The shorter gearing will skew the numbers down. This version of the software can be like 7% off from what the Vic gurus (except Kevin) use... so that would be 110/116... and with the gearing? The Barometer was low the day of this run.

If this is a "Screamin' Eagle" 110 package... well... they suck! The compression is too low, the heads suck, and the cams are too big for the rest of the set-up... plus, he has a full exhaust that is probably too large in diameter for his package.

It's just like Vic. If you are looking for performance IGNORE what the factory offers. It's sh!t. Any decent aftermarket engine package will CRUSH a factory package. Additionally, The HD dealer is probably not the place to have your engine package designed.

Here... look at this...

This (believe it or not) is a BONE STOCK 103" Harley with a crappy SE air cleaner, and crappy Vance & Hines slip-ons, a Power Commander, and Wood's 777 cams. 106.5/122... There is a terrible "dip" in the graph around 2500 (I wish it was a better pic) and we were trying to tune the dip out... until the customer said "I gutted the cats out of it". Well, that explains it...

So yeah, you can find examples of a 110" HD that barely cracks 100 HP with a lot of work in it... but you can also find stock compression 103s that will surprise you.

Three of my friends have Road Kings that make 122/120 with 98" engines. They make 100 on torque at 2600 rpm.

In general, the Vic with the same or even milder mods will run a bit stronger... But it is folly to go around thinking that Harleys are slow... not all of them are... not all owners chose poorly. And, a Nikasil 107" big bore for the old 96" twin cams costs $1000. A Lloydz 107 big bore for your 100" Vic is $1400, and a 116" big bore for your 106 is $1500. You can do a big bore in the Harley with the engine in the bike...

Just keepin' it real...

 

[Half_Crazy]

HD 103... just cams w/slip-ons, air filter, tuner....

Victory 106 with the same mods plus timing wheel...

2 more HP and 11 LESS ft-lbs from 3 cubic inches larger.....

 

[Kingpin007]

With the gearing change how does it effect the dyno numbers?? The example above or say your 31 tooth pulley vs stock? I know what it does for the bike but not sure how that is reflected in the Dyno numbers. As well Harley vs Victory gearing is different to start with. We dyno in 5th gear where there is a 1:1 drive. Harley is not 1:1 in 5th is my understanding so is the true dyno numbers off if you use 5th on a harley??

 

[randy.dixon]

When I was bike shopping last year and I narrowed down my choices to two bikes, the softtail slim and the gunner,other than price the thing that swayed me was the MOTOR.
It's all about that engine.

 

[crosscountryla]

When I was bike shopping last year and I narrowed down my choices to two bikes, the softtail slim and the gunner,other than price the thing that swayed me was the MOTOR.
It's all about that engine.

Ditto what you said about the 106 engine!

 

[crosscountryla]

Half_Crazy

If you had Harley with the same modifications to the engine and gearing too, do you think it would be as reliable as the engine that you have in your Kingpin now?

 

[kaitiff]

Not gonna spit in your eye H_C, but I haven't seen a 103 HD pulling anywhere near 120 unless the did top and bottom and spent a lot of cash. Not saying it can't be done, but it would seem to me that if it was that easy to bolt onto a twin-cam and get 120+ there'd be a LOT more guys doing it. Especially when the big boys on the block like zippers can't guarantee those kinds of results and their kits cost a LOT more.

I do agree that automatically assuming an HD can't run will get you into trouble quick, there aren't that many of them out there set up 'right'. Last guy that told me he just spent X grand on his bike and it was running in the 120's was a complete liar and I proved it to him.

 

[Jeb27]

HD 103... just cams w/slip-ons, air filter, tuner....
View attachment 13200

Victory 106 with the same mods plus timing wheel...

2 more HP and 11 LESS ft-lbs from 3 cubic inches larger.....

HC, is yours ported and polished?

 

[Half_Crazy]

With the gearing change how does it effect the dyno numbers?? The example above or say your 31 tooth pulley vs stock? I know what it does for the bike but not sure how that is reflected in the Dyno numbers. As well Harley vs Victory gearing is different to start with. We dyno in 5th gear where there is a 1:1 drive. Harley is not 1:1 in 5th is my understanding so is the true dyno numbers off if you use 5th on a harley??

I have no comparison for mine before and after the gearing change. I changed the gears before it ever saw a dyno. I know from dyno experience that changing the gearing has a definite effect on what the dyno reads for peak numbers but I cannot say by how much. I still get best numbers in 5th on my bike but the Harleys get best results in 6th usually, but we try both just to make sure.

If you had Harley with the same modifications to the engine and gearing too, do you think it would be as reliable as the engine that you have in your Kingpin now?

The engine itself, yes. The Harleys use much more aggressive cams and heavy valve springs, so I would think the valve train life would suffer some. Most big dick HD motors are not expected to live 50-60 thousand miles, mostly due to the valve train wearing out.

 

[Half_Crazy]

Not gonna spit in your eye H_C, but I haven't seen a 103 HD pulling anywhere near 120 unless the did top and bottom and spent a lot of cash. Not saying it can't be done, but it would seem to me that if it was that easy to bolt onto a twin-cam and get 120+ there'd be a LOT more guys doing it. Especially when the big boys on the block like zippers can't guarantee those kinds of results and their kits cost a LOT more.

Well.... We do a lot of 107s that make 120 horse... but it's expensive because you need HEADS and a THROTTLE BODY and .600 lift... The joy of the Victory is that the heads don't need much if anything at that level.

I know... we see the 120 number on Vics with just cams... but the dyno guys for Vic usually get some pretty "optimistic" numbers.
My bike made 131 HP on KMC's Dyno... on the dyno at SM City it makes like 124 HP...
So, when we see these 120 HP XCs, is that really 113-114 HP? I don't know...

I do agree that automatically assuming an HD can't run will get you into trouble quick, there aren't that many of them out there set up 'right'. Last guy that told me he just spent X grand on his bike and it was running in the 120's was a complete liar and I proved it to him.

Yes, a lot of the HD boys here have been misled badly on what their bikes make. I don't think they are lying, just repeating false information. Everyone likes to hear those big numbers, but it doesn't really matter if the dyno says 4 or 40 or 400... the question is how much better did it get from where you started, by percentage.

People will say a dyno is "off by 5 HP" but that's freakin' dumb. It will be off by a percentage. At 100 HP 5 is 5%... at 20 HP 5 is 25%...
Same with speedometers. "It's off by 5 mph". Yes, at 60 mph it's off by 5 mph, but at 120 mph it's off by 10 mph and at 30 mph it's off by 2.5 mph... because it's a percentage, not a fixed number.

The difference between the KMC dyno and the SMC dyno is just about 7%. Same with Rylan's VS Kevin's. It's just a different version of the software. That's all. No one is lying.