[Flyboy]

If a citizen was to accidentally shoot someone and they die its involuntary manslaughter, if this kid died the cop would have not been charged because it was unintentional. Am I right? Just a thought.

Yes...

 

[Keith Grey]

Yes...

Line of duty investigation, (OIS team in big places?) maybe some admin spankin if they are big enough to weather the civil suit, but accidental discharge doesn't usually end in criminal court.

 

[Flyboy]

Line of duty investigation, (OIS team in big places?) maybe some admin spankin if they are big enough to weather the civil suit, but accidental discharge doesn't usually end in criminal court.

I guess the answer should have been "could", as "would" is never a known. Depending on the prosecutor and the presentation to a Grand Jury. I see your point Keith, but it does occur all the time from custodial situations.

I would never thought failing to seat belt a known drug offender into a Paddy Wagon, would have ended in the loss of a six million dollars to head off a civil suit (still think the Feds ought to check into which attorney made what). Not to mention the indictment of six of Baltimore's Finest.

The answer is still yes, he could, with just one example, there are more...

Feb 10, 2015 - Peter Liang will face criminal charges that can send him to prison for up to 15 years for the death of Akai Gurley on Nov. ... A grand jury started hearing the case on Feb 4. ... This fatal incident was clearly negligent discharge caused by ... Laing is a young officer in a police force routinely criticized for minimal ...

 

[primethious]

The cop broke the first and most important rule of gun safety.
You never point a gun at anything you don't want to shoot.
It's a simple rule that works perfectly every time it's used.
He could have drawn the weapon so that he would be ready if sht went down but not pointed it directly at the motorcyclist and you'd have no injured party, and no law suit. This cop was poorly following a SOP that was based on battleground tactics instead of one that's based on a non violent civilian interaction.

 

[Flyboy]

The cop broke the first and most important rule of gun safety.
You never point a gun at anything you don't want to shoot.
It's a simple rule that works perfectly every time it's used.
He could have drawn the weapon so that he would be ready if sht went down but not pointed it directly at the motorcyclist and you'd have no injured party, and no law suit. This cop was poorly following a SOP that was based on battleground tactics instead of one that's based on a non violent civilian interaction.

There is lot of issues at play here, type of weapon, made by whom. Is it striker or hammer, double action only or single after first shot, trigger pull in pounds in all phases. From here we go into training and policy versus practice and was the Officer familiar with the weapon enough to have formed a solid muscle memory (apparently not).

We required our Special Teams to fire at least a thousand round a year minimum in all sorts of scenarios. But,a Patrolman goes though one or two sessions a year with less than a 100 rounds. It is up to the individual to be insure he is proficient with his tools and stays in shape. Due to unions and labor based law suits, it ain't like the good old days with physical fitness

As for the Stop, why was it a "Felony Stop" and although the reason was apparent, how much did the adrenalin play into the above. A chase has a life of its own and is the reason why some are called off after a certain distance or by the Patrol Supervisor based on aggravating factors...

Screw the pooch, big time. In need of additional training or was it a policy/training failure that aggravated the situation. I can cite more than a couple times when officers were killed by muscle memory to include just getting rid of expended casings. You fight as you train and I don't agree with this shoot at all, I do understand how it occurred.

With all respect, Prime, it was a mistake brought on by the action of the now victim, who started out as a violator starting the chase and bears some responsibility for creating the stage for the events to unfold. I have to agree there needs be some corrective and punitive measures and you heard the officers response once he "accidently" sent a round down range. But starting a high speed chase has certain hazards and indexing a weapon till ready to fire, has its reasons as well...

Funny thing about guns, as I have seen far more accidental shootings than intentional ones... Although rarely from the Police, seen more than one file cabinet or patrol car with a hole in it.

 

[VicVisionBulldog]

This cop was poorly following a SOP that was based on battleground tactics instead of one that's based on a non violent civilian interaction.

Don't confuse what I stated as a common SOP as his. I don't know what their SOP is or how it is worded. With the little discipline he seems to have received I would guess they didn't find he did many things wrong, meaning he followed their SOP pretty well. That and we truly don't know why he fired. Yes, he got his finger on the trigger when he shouldn't have but did he step out of his car and step in a hole or roll his ankle causing him to fall and grab his gun wrong? A number of things could have happened that helped cause this incident.

I know a guy that was making a high risk stop on a known dope dealer. It was night and as he stepped out of the patrol car he didn't notice the man hole cover was missing. He stepped out and disappeared into the hole. Luckily he was not injured to badly.

Like I said many unknowns.

seen more than one file cabinet or patrol car with a hole in it.

Office pop!!!!

 

[VicVisionBulldog]

Here is a perfect example of how fast things can change and how they are not always as they appear.

Basically the fleeing vehicle is being driven by a robbery suspect. After a chase he pulls over and acts as if he is giving up. He comes out with hands up but as he goes to his knees he pulls a pistol. He then shoots the officer in the chest and takes off on foot. The officer in this case is a stud and I applaud him for having a true warrior spirit.

Even though the officer had his gun drawn as he approached his reaction was not faster than the turd's action and he was still shot. Think about how it would have been if the officers gun was still in the holster as he approached. Sometimes you can not use cover and all you have for cover is return fire. For those that believe the officer should have stayed behind his car door know this. It is no longer being taught that a vehicle is good cover and it is more accurately referred to concealment now. Modern rounds from modern guns can go through a car like a hot knife through butter.

There is also a tactical reason to leave the car but I don't want to educate you too much.

Notice the bullet markers you can see near the top of the door go all the way through.

 

[Flyboy]

Don't confuse what I stated as a common SOP as his. I don't know what their SOP is or how it is worded. With the little discipline he seems to have received I would guess they didn't find he did many things wrong, meaning he followed their SOP pretty well. That and we truly don't know why he fired. Yes, he got his finger on the trigger when he shouldn't have but did he step out of his car and step in a hole or roll his ankle causing him to fall and grab his gun wrong? A number of things could have happened that helped cause this incident.

I know a guy that was making a high risk stop on a known dope dealer. It was night and as he stepped out of the patrol car he didn't notice the man hole cover was missing. He stepped out and disappeared into the hole. Luckily he was not injured to badly.

Like I said many unknowns.

Office pop!!!!

Office pop, didn't know they had a name for it... Had an Armor light off my .357 Magnum (early 80's) in an spot inspection once and boy can a hollow point spatter when it hits concrete... He is the expert with decades of experience.

Before the VOG experts chime in, yes, I followed procedure and weapon was handed to him after rendered safe with cylinder open. We even discussed the ammo I was carrying, (158 gr Hollow point dipped in Buffalo Dung) removing a round and replacing into the cylinder. Even after two alerts from me it is "loaded", he still continued checking the timing. It functioned flawlessly... Leaving a tattoo of what side gassing will do from a revolver.

 

[lou8700]

This is something a little different. Motorcyclists join in police chase. No guns drawn.

Video: This morning commute will wake you up

 

[MagVic CCT]

Office pop, didn't know they had a name for it... Had an Armor light off my .357 Magnum (early 80's) in an spot inspection once and boy can a hollow point spatter when it hits concrete... He is the expert with decades of experience.

Before the VOG experts chime in, yes, I followed procedure and weapon was handed to him after rendered safe with cylinder open. We even discussed the ammo I was carrying, (158 gr Hollow point dipped in Buffalo Dung) removing a round and replacing into the cylinder. Even after two alerts from me it is "loaded", he still continued checking the timing. It functioned flawlessly... Leaving a tattoo of what side gassing will do from a revolver.

He got the black stain tatoo. Ouch. I always heard that at the range, if you had an unintended discharge, but it went down range, you at least got a blindfold and cigarette. If it didn't go downrange, I guess you weren't extended that courtesy.

 

[Oldman47]

Did he stop you?

Did the "trigger happy cop" shoot the two of you?

Did you check into him trespassing on your land to find out you were wrong in calling it such?

Did you find out during that fact finding mission that a GW is the ONLY peace officer in Texas that can enter your home without a warrant when looking for evidence?

Let's start out with the obvious as answers.
We went back to shooting after he left. We are both alive today but who knows if we would be if I had not responded with an abundance of caution. I am not going to be wrong on trespassing from any point of view when I call it what it is. I might not be able to have him arrested for it, partly because cops definitely hang together, but that does not change what was happening.
I do not live in Texas and as far as I know the forth amendment has not been suspended here, in Texas or any other place in the US. Nobody gets to search me or my immediately controlled location without a warrant ever unless they are able to show a crime actually in progress.

Where are you working for an over eager LLEA that I need to avoid just so that I don't need to hire an attorney to take you to task for conducting an unconstitutional search? I would find that a bit inconvenient. I have better things to do with my time, like riding. Do not try to stop me and ask to search my vehicle or ask me what I have been doing. I will definitely stand on my rights and you will have more legal fun than you can begin to imagine if you push things. I am not a teenager you can bully with cop attitudes. I never have to identify myself to you but realize I must provide a driver's license to prove I have the privilege of driving. Unless you can cite exactly what you suspect me of doing and can show a warrant, you will not search me or my personally controlled property and finally, I will never even admit to driving down the street even if you have watched me do so. I still have 5th amendment rights and bullying me will be a dead end for you.

 

[VicVisionBulldog]

Let's start out with the obvious as answers.
We went back to shooting after he left. We are both alive today but who knows if we would be if I had not responded with an abundance of caution. I am not going to be wrong on trespassing from any point of view when I call it what it is. I might not be able to have him arrested for it, partly because cops definitely hang together, but that does not change what was happening.
I do not live in Texas and as far as I know the forth amendment has not been suspended here, in Texas or any other place in the US. Nobody gets to search me or my immediately controlled location without a warrant ever unless they are able to show a crime actually in progress.

Where are you working for an over eager LLEA that I need to avoid just so that I don't need to hire an attorney to take you to task for conducting an unconstitutional search? I would find that a bit inconvenient. I have better things to do with my time, like riding. Do not try to stop me and ask to search my vehicle or ask me what I have been doing. I will definitely stand on my rights and you will have more legal fun than you can begin to imagine if you push things. I am not a teenager you can bully with cop attitudes. I never have to identify myself to you but realize I must provide a driver's license to prove I have the privilege of driving. Unless you can cite exactly what you suspect me of doing and can show a warrant, you will not search me or my personally controlled property and finally, I will never even admit to driving down the street even if you have watched me do so. I still have 5th amendment rights and bullying me will be a dead end for you.

The person you should have really been upset with in your story is the person who called the two of you in.

You can call it trespassing all you want but if the police are called to a location they do have the right to be there and it is not trespassing. There will not be any charges on them not because "cops definitely hang together." There will not be any charges on them because there is no crime committed.

As for the warrantless search by a GW I brought up that is a Texas thing as I specified. They can not just walk into your home and they do need to have reason to believe you to have committed a crime. I see I need to take things a bit slower with you and really spell it out. Though you say you are not a teenager to be bullied your attitude and beliefs are not going to serve you well if you found yourself in a position to be searched. Police do not have to sit you down and explain everything to you laying out their case before they search you or something of yours. As long as they have their PC or warrant the search will be conducted even with your protest.

And one final thing. I completely believe that you would not admit driving down the street even if I saw you doing it. I wouldn't even try to argue with you about this as I know you most likely do not remember doing it.

The good thing about you is you are not a bad person and not a criminal. You will not be found in such situations, at least I hope.

 

[Oldman47]

Illegal searches are just that. It really does not matter the circumstances or the organization that conducts an illegal search. There is no "well its OK if" in the 4th amendment. Anything found in the course of an illegal search is simply never going to be evidence of anything, so there is no point to it. If there is a legitimate reason for a search, a warrant can be obtained, so there is no excuse for conducting an illegal search.
As far as my attitudes, they are formed by my observations as an adult. I can be as friendly as can be with a "peace officer" if they are not trying to f**k with me but I am all done being a victim. Warrant-less searches and discovery type questioning outside of an actual arrest will get you nowhere with me. If I am walking down the street and you decide to stop me you had darned well better have it together or you will be facing disciplinary charges by your own department. Cops, none of them, are my friends. That does not mean I cannot treat them in a civil manner if they are well behaved but I have zero tolerance for BS.

 

[VicVisionBulldog]

Illegal searches are just that. It really does not matter the circumstances or the organization that conducts an illegal search. There is no "well its OK if" in the 4th amendment. Anything found in the course of an illegal search is simply never going to be evidence of anything, so there is no point to it. If there is a legitimate reason for a search, a warrant can be obtained, so there is no excuse for conducting an illegal search.
As far as my attitudes, they are formed by my observations as an adult. I can be as friendly as can be with a "peace officer" if they are not trying to f**k with me but I am all done being a victim. Warrant-less searches and discovery type questioning outside of an actual arrest will get you nowhere with me. If I am walking down the street and you decide to stop me you had darned well better have it together or you will be facing disciplinary charges by your own department. Cops, none of them, are my friends. That does not mean I cannot treat them in a civil manner if they are well behaved but I have zero tolerance for BS.

Wow! Maybe I was wrong. A person with nothing to hide shouldn't mind a simple chat with an officer. Would you not want them making sure people walking down your street belong there if they are not recognized. I guess you would rather the police leave everyone alone and let the burglars, rapist, and robbers walk freely around our communities easily traveling from victim to victim.

As far as a search, any search, I am done talking with you about it. You have your mind made up, like many here. You are not interested in a conversation and instead respond as if I said nothing at all. You are set in your ways and without your views you would have nothing to bit8h about so you have to hold them tightly to give you an axe to grind. Otherwise you would have to acknowledge the truth and your argument would have a disliked conclusion. I get it. I guess there are not enough cats in your yard to yell at during the winter up there.

Done being the victim? Please share the time police made you the victim. I am honestly interested. You make me think of the sovereign nation folks. Is that you? They are a dangerous breed.

 

[Oldman47]

Wow! Maybe I was wrong. A person with nothing to hide shouldn't mind a simple chat with an officer. Would you not want them making sure people walking down your street belong there if they are not recognized. I guess you would rather the police leave everyone alone and let the burglars, rapist, and robbers walk freely around our communities easily traveling from victim to victim.

I have no problem with a chat with an officer and have had many such, under purely social circumstances. I do have a problem being approached as if I am a criminal for them to have a "casual conversation" that is no such a thing. When an on-duty cop that I don't know approaches me and tries to act like he is my friend it sets off all kinds of alarms in my head. Yes, I will report suspicious people for the cops to investigate if I think there is reason to do so but that is not the same as them taking it upon themselves to harass anyone out walking around in my neighborhood. I cannot begin to identify everyone in my neighborhood but no way does that make their actions worthy of a follow up. Your statement about burglars, rapists and robbers tells me where your mind set is, and no way do I support that point of view. I own some property out in the sticks and have stopped people who were at least 500 feet down my driveway to challenge why they were there. Instead of being belligerent or calling the cops I actually helped them find the ride they were looking for when they ventured down my un-posted driveway. I am just fine with people who are lost or have strayed from the "norm". Darned few of them are rapists, burglars or robbers and that means that I reject your characterization of them as such.

As far as a search, any search, I am done talking with you about it. You have your mind made up, like many here. You are not interested in a conversation and instead respond as if I said nothing at all. You are set in your ways and without your views you would have nothing to bit8h about so you have to hold them tightly to give you an axe to grind. Otherwise you would have to acknowledge the truth and your argument would have a disliked conclusion. I get it. I guess there are not enough cats in your yard to yell at during the winter up there.

Agreed. We will never come together with me accepting an illegal search.

Done being the victim? Please share the time police made you the victim. I am honestly interested. You make me think of the sovereign nation folks. Is that you? They are a dangerous breed.

If I need to be a sovereign nations person to defend my rights against abuse, I guess I am that person. I am never dangerous to those who merely want to go about their business but I never give up my rights just to fit in either. If that makes me dangerous in your eyes, I truly feel sorry for you. Let me give a quote, if I can get it right.
Attributed to Ben Franklin:
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. "

 

[VicVisionBulldog]

Yes, I will report suspicious people for the cops to investigate if I think there is reason to do so but that is not the same as them taking it upon themselves to harass anyone out walking around in my neighborhood. I cannot begin to identify everyone in my neighborhood but no way does that make their actions worthy of a follow up.

There is a lot going on in an officers mind on even the most simple of calls. Make one wrong comment and you can blow it up into something much more than it should be.

Any good cop will not tell a person walking down the street that a person called in on them. They should act as if they are just doing their job and keeping the area safe. Ask a few simple questions and react off of those answers. Its pretty simple really.

Telling people that others called in on them just causes problems in many situations. Its never good to go to a noise complaint and let them know which neighbor called. You can bet you will be back that night if you do.

 

[Oldman47]

It seems that you are trying very hard to be reasonable within your experiences, just as I am within my experiences. I think the difference is that you have so far not been accused of doing something wrong based on totally baseless assumptions.

When I ran from my home to try to get help for my dying brother who was the victim of a gunshot wound to the heart when I was the ripe old age of 15 I was accused of murder. It took me at least 20 seconds to get control of myself and go back into the house to dial the local emergency number and ask for an ambulance because I was panicking. Nobody but the cops showed up to tend to my dying brother, nobody. That is because only a cop was allowed to call for an ambulance for a gun shot at that time under SOPs. 911 did not exist back then so I had to actually look up an emergency service number but at least we had a sticker on the phone with the number on it.

Does that give you any perspective on why I think you are all out to get me and people like me? The accusation did not last very long after the cops interviewed my younger brother, the shooter, who admitted he had done it or my baby sister, but the local paper did have me down as the killer and never published a retraction. The neighbor that reported me as the shooter never had a clue what went on inside the house but a cop driving by might have easily reached the same conclusion that they did. Would they have shot me for running around in a panic? Who knows.
As far as cops identifying that a person is called in or who it was, it makes no difference to me. As far as I am concerned nobody has a right to search me outside of 4th amendment guidance and I will never talk to a cop who is present on official business. I can incriminate myself easily long before a cop reads me my rights if I am not silent. Ever hear of this? "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law." I will stand on those rights every darned time and will refuse to answer even the most innocent sounding of questions.

Cop: Why are you running around in the street?
Me: I need an ambulance because my brother has a wound in his chest.

OK, what do you think? Am I a suspect after that short exchange?

 

[bharper4213]

Vic vision I think the old man won this exchange. I work as the maintenance man in the sheriff's office and jail, and I know for a fact that most cops are great people. But some are the biggest dicks that ever walked and have the ego to go with it. And as a civilian we don't know which one is talking to you until they open their mouth, if it's the dick you will not win. So it goes both ways on any contact.

 

[VicVisionBulldog]

You have a problem with blaming the wrong people. The police officers did not come up with the idea of them calling for an ambulance. That would be a decision made by a group of people other than just the police dept within that city or county.

The Houston Fire Dept changed a few years back and they no longer send out an ambulance immediately. They first send out a truck and they assess the situation and call for an ambulance if they see fit. Has nothing to do with the police.

I told you I'm not discussing searches any more. You don't know enough of the actual law to do so. The 4th is not a blanket that protects you from all searches. Like it or not you can be searched under certain conditions.

As to your brother being shot and you being questioned. Well that sucks. Plain and simple sucks. Unfortunately the police still have a job to do and interviews have to be done. But yet again the police do not control the newspaper and they didn't cause the shooting.

I'm sorry you had to go through that.

 

[VicVisionBulldog]

the old man won this exchange.

I must have missed it. Thx for letting me know.

some are the biggest dicks that ever walked and have the ego to go with it

we don't know which one is talking to you until they open their mouth

The same cam be said about maintenence men, or anybody for that matter. I once had a youth pastor be extremely rude to me. I didn't let it form my opinion of all of them.