Here is the first dyno test of HD newest performance bagger. Pretty stout for stock but I still think my XC 106 stage 2 with UDP will still give this bike a run for all its worth. What do you all think? Anyone race any of the new 2023 HD with the 121 yet?
2024 CVO ST vs 106 Stage 2
Kingpin007
21 - 30 of 30 Posts
Joined
·
10,749 Posts
Going from a Victory 106” to a 117” is over $5k in parts alone.
117” Pistons/cylinders - $2k
117” Heads - $2k
Variable clutch - $1k
New/different cams?
New/different slip on mufflers?
Plus gasket set etc.
What are the costs to go from the 108” to a 112”? About the same?
Labor for both bikes should be similar since the nomenclature on both bikes are Victory.
From an increase in Hp and Trq gains, I’d guess the Victory is a better deal.
117” Pistons/cylinders - $2k
117” Heads - $2k
Variable clutch - $1k
New/different cams?
New/different slip on mufflers?
Plus gasket set etc.
What are the costs to go from the 108” to a 112”? About the same?
Labor for both bikes should be similar since the nomenclature on both bikes are Victory.
From an increase in Hp and Trq gains, I’d guess the Victory is a better deal.
Joined
·
14,273 Posts
I watched a video where a lloydz tech installed set of cams into a Challenger Elite. The motor had to be lowered. It was a process compared to a cam job on a Vic. Roughly $1500 more for the challenger job.
Two Indians posted a video after having Lloydz cams and retune done on his Challenger. The outcome was less than expected as torque was lost for top end HP. Not ideal for a heavy touring type if you ride in the meat of the power band. $3500 later and his puss face on the first test ride was priceless. Said he was perfectly happy with the ecu tune done with RSV ( I believe is the name ). The only way to regain the lost power down stairs now was with Lloydz own 2 into 1 exhaust. Proving once again that a carefully chosen set of components is key in performance modification.
Joined
·
14,273 Posts
Another great example. My buddy has a 107 RoadGlide. He did cams and intake and Rineharts with True dual head pipes. Thunder max tuner. The bike ran good. He was happy but the exhaust just wasn’t beefy enough. He removed the baffles that rinehart carefully selected and cut them in 1/2. Decreased his low end torque some.
Just recently he bought a D&D 2into 1 exhaust in hopes to gain more torque. Only problem is the sales pro on the phone talked him into the big bore muffler (114 and larger displacement) rather than the quieter more suitable louvered core baffle designed for a stock 107 even with cam. It’s obnoxiously loud now and more torque lost. His option now is to spend $500 more for the other muffler or build his which ultimately is what he wants to do.
So where am I going with this ? Do your research. Talk to guys that have successfully built their combos with the right stuff to get the results they wanted and that are similar to what you want. Even in the simple world of Victory I’ve seen the wrong combination of parts ending in poor performance but oh man does it sound good and loud !!!
Just recently he bought a D&D 2into 1 exhaust in hopes to gain more torque. Only problem is the sales pro on the phone talked him into the big bore muffler (114 and larger displacement) rather than the quieter more suitable louvered core baffle designed for a stock 107 even with cam. It’s obnoxiously loud now and more torque lost. His option now is to spend $500 more for the other muffler or build his which ultimately is what he wants to do.
So where am I going with this ? Do your research. Talk to guys that have successfully built their combos with the right stuff to get the results they wanted and that are similar to what you want. Even in the simple world of Victory I’ve seen the wrong combination of parts ending in poor performance but oh man does it sound good and loud !!!
Joined
·
11,781 Posts
All of that just provides further confirmation about how great these Vic engines are designed. Even with a mixed bag of components, decent exhaust (many seem to work well), better intake, cams (a few different choices), and tune (hopefully full ECU) these motors respond with improved numbers in both departments and within a relatively narrow band.
The right parts and tune do make for a better set up, but at least we don't loose power unless the whole thing is botched.
The right parts and tune do make for a better set up, but at least we don't loose power unless the whole thing is botched.
Joined
·
11,781 Posts
Where does Harley put their cats, and how are they configured? It seems that Vic did a great job of configuration and placement of cats, as that seems to have more sway over output than type of mufflers. The more I hear about these things, the more I am impressed with the original engineering. Some one really did their homework.
Joined
·
14,273 Posts
As simple as it was yes Mike Song had a Vision !! Pun intended …… then there was Mike Shultz of Arizona Victory that loved to drive home the simplistic engineering of the freedom motors compared to the twin cams. Victory made Harley step up ! Indian Challenger made Harley step up. Not so much the chieftain bikes. They may made HD step up in the infotainment dept. the Challenger became the elephant in the room. Thus the RoadGlide becoming the #1 sold Harley Davidson still. Time for Challenger to reshape that ugly fairing. HD did !!
Joined
·
4,192 Posts
@slickvic i think the new RG fairing looks so much closer to a challenger now with this new design….. I do see the HD boys do not seem very happy with it either. I’m not a fan of either in the looks department myself. But I’ve always said stick the challenger motor in my style bike I’m all over it.
Joined
·
4,192 Posts
Hhmmmmm that’s interesting I’ve seen 118 & 128a stock challenger does not come close to these HD numbers. A stage 2 does but that’s not apples to apples and stage 2 on a challenger is very expensive due to the amount of labour involved.
How Much Power Does The 2020 Indian Challenger Make?
We record horsepower and torque measurements of the 2020 Indian Challenger.www.cycleworld.com
Joined
·
479 Posts
Stock numbers at crank are 122 hp 128 tq. Maybe that's what you're referring to. Typical driveline losses are 10-15%.
Joined
·
14,273 Posts
Compared to HDs 107 and TC 103’ and Victory freedom motors that’s a healthy increase in crank HP/Tq. The challenger 108 PP motor according to a comment Lloyd made in a video a year or so ago is capable of so much more power (wanna say 200hp) compared to the competition without even opening the motor.
Imo it’s the best Bagger Vtwin motor out there from the factory in a stock bike. Power ratio to CI is amazing for a stock motor. If I were to own one I would only tune with a 2into1 performance exhaust. After watching just about every review from cam changes to 112 BB increase the gains are not with the $$$$ spent.
$3600 for a cam swap and tune to loose torque is a no bueno for me. Throw in the Lloydz 2 into 1 pipe to fix that low end Tq loss for an additional $1500 and merely just get back to or slightly above the Tq that the stock cams gave. Sure top end performance is improved but a flash of the ECU will extend Rpm and mph anyway. Like I said earlier and Lloydz said it too. Be prepared to go all the way when opening the motor for his cams to get the results. Cams, intake, tune, and most important with these motors exhaust. Many are out there now with their Rineharts or what ever they got and a ECU flash and then want cams next only to be dissatisfied with the numbers on the Dyno sheet. Yep …… gotta do it all over again with the exhaust too to get it right.
Waiting now for a complete package that is finally available for 2022 bikes and earlier is over. Sell your Rineharts or what ever you bought and step up to a wheelie performance Bagger. Or …… ECU tune with a good exhaust and save some money. Going that route I’ve seen a lot of smiles for the $$ spent. The rest to me is all bragging rights after a while.
21 - 30 of 30 Posts
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
