[Nessie044]

If I understand you correctly, this is where we disagree. Fiscal conservatives (not Republicans) have been screaming the system doesn't work....we need to fix it....but, pension holders say "No F--kin way!" Now we cannot pay them, and they are screaming "You're screwing me!" When someone drives 100 MPH off a cliff (through barricades warning the "bridge is out") and then screams because they are plummeting to their deaths....what are we to do? BTW, I'm the one who said I would raise the debt ceiling to fix this....but only if everyone is converted to (fully funded) personal/privately controlled accounts.....that don't rely on "lifetime payments" that don't work. Just give me answers that are better than mine?

If I had all the answers, you'd be addressing me as "Sire". I do know this, though. As Keith wrote, the solution isn't to BF all those people who poured their lives into public service. And as he also rightly pointed out, if the government will feed its own to the fire, how much compunction do you think they'll experience when the time comes to raid your piggy bank? I've said it before, but no one wants to hear it. And I'll preface my reiteration by saying I don't begrudge anyone who works for a living what they get. I have never been one of these people who says, "but what about him?" If you want to pay beat cops and firefighters a million a year to do their job, fine by me. But if you want to talk about pension reform, you can stop eye-****ing me and point the finger where it belongs, because I'm not the problem. I have a friend who collects 200 large and paid medical for life. He also went to work for another agency on an interim basis a month after he retired. I'm happy for him. But is it sustainable? Obviously not. I also know people who put in their 30 years and knock down a hefty $37K in retirement and have to pay their own freight for medical. You say "do the math", that's a 5:1 ratio. Let's start there.

 

[ddawg]

Ok Mr. Keith Grey, let me get the crayons out, and type real slow, so a thick skulled dimwit like you can understand. You say - 1. All politicians lie. (according to you - no one single politician has a shred of honesty - your words). 2. All politicians are corrupt. (according to you - no chance of any integrity to make honest decisions based on principle - the right thing for the people - because according to you - they are all corrupt - your words.) 3. No matter which politician occupies the office (president, senator, house of rep), nothing ever changes - according to you - your words). 4. All politicians only serve their "Masters" (crony capitalism, payback, corruption - all of them - your words). That is a picture of No Hope that you paint. So, a simple question for your simple mind - why do you endlessly post in a political thread if you sincerely believe those above listed sentiments. Mr. Keith Grey - What is your goal? What is your objective? Are you just bored? Lonely? :laugh:

 

[phoenix9]

Nessie brother man, See my post above. I'm all for every public employee getting their retirements....but I'm trying "save them from their own personal self destruction". I can't help those who choose to do something that is killing them. Read my post #4520 super super close. I'm confident I'm on to something here. Real dollars in the system are MUCH much more powerful than "pretend" dollars on a mythical Governmental ledger. A dollar in an IRA actually exists in the economy. They are real dollars that are given (in the form of an investment vehicle) to companies A, B, and C.....and X, Y, and Z. They have the ability to turn my dollar into $.50, or the ability to turn my dollar into $2. Either way it is real......and I can take it from them whenever I want. Now, those Pension dollars don't actually exist. They are make believe. No where on the planet earth can you go take a Pension dollar. The only time they exist is when someone actually cuts a check....but until then they are not "active" in the economy. To remove something from the economy that doesn't actually exist is easy....because it is make-believe. To remove an actual tangeable material item is a completely different story.

 

[Advntrus2pointoh]

Follow me on this for a moment and then discuss. We have all heard the phrase "too big to fail". Well, we all know the Pension system has created a debt burden that is "too big to sustain"......which makes it so easy to destroy an employee's lifetime of work. How else do you explain 69% (San Diego) and an even more unbelievable 78% (San Jose) approval of cutting pensions?.....in a State that is just slightly less Communistic than Russia? How does a Conservative Republican Governor in a Democratic State of WI get even MORE support in an election after he goes after said Pension costs? That is the reality we have in the past week. Now.........Now..........we have personal/private self-directed retirement accounts sitting out here. Money that is NOT held in a mythical Government ledger. It is actual documented money. Money the Government can no longer use to "balance their budgets". Money that is actually "active" in the economic machine moving between CD's, and stocks, and investment trusts.....these are ACTUAL dollars moving through the system like oxygen in our atmosphere (not mythical future benefit payments that they don't need to even put on a budget line item). We do understand this correct? OK, let's say the Government wants to take this money from us....basically taking it OUT of the economy. How will they do it? By Congressional order? By marshal law? This would be much the same as simply taking our homes from us...but even worse, as it is literally shrinking the economy. Yes, I am well aware of Imminent domain.....I get that 1/100,000 argument. Does the Government take people's property under this rule? Yep! Could they sniper off a couple 1000 accounts a year and get away with it disregarding the moral outrage? Most likely. Let me ask you this question: What would happen if Congress decided to convene and decide whether or not to make ALL personal property the property of the Government. What if they did this with our personal retirement accounts? What do you think would happen? Would people go to work in the morning? I wouldn't. Would people withdraw their funds? I would. Would people leave the Country? I would. Would the economy come to a complete stop? Do the math and get back to me on that one..... Someone explain to me a feasable scenario where the Government can successfully take your personal retirement account, thereby shutting down the economy? Someone explain to me a feasable scenario where the Government can successfully take your Pension? .......OH, wait a minute.......:detective:

Mark, You and I see the Pension issue much the same way. Now, here's what I think Government "Might", dare I say 'Is likely" to try and do. They will not come after your 401K all at once. It's like the Nurse drawing blood. You can squirm, delay even run out if you like BEFORE the needle goes in. Once she slams it in though...SHE'S GOT YOU! You are going to sit still, because it could be more painful to move. What will happen, is what always happens. We are going to tax 401k's of "The Rich", but ONLY THE RICH. Since you or I don't have over say, 5 Million, in our 401K......Fine then. That's not me. So go ahead, I'm not worried or affected. AND THE NEEDLE IS SET! From there on, it can be "adjusted" at will by the next congress with a vote in the middle of the night. Retro active even. Thoughts? Mayberry

 

[phoenix9]

What will happen, is what always happens. We are going to tax 401k's of "The Rich", but ONLY THE RICH. Since you or I don't have over say, 5 Million, in our 401K......Fine then. That's not me. So go ahead, I'm not worried or affected. AND THE NEEDLE IS SET! From there on, it can be "adjusted" at will by the next congress with a vote in the middle of the night. Retro active even. Thoughts? Mayberry

....and as soon as she hits "my vein", I withdraw. "Tax the other guy? Sure! I'm a complete idiot that way!"....just like half the Country. "Tax me? Hooooold on a minute...." I may have just got a mathematical bone in my body. You make a very valid point.....but at least there is a check/balance of stupidity involved in this scheme....unlike sending Mildred the Postal worker to welfare after she retires and we f--k her out of her make-believe pension. ....But....no one has still addressed the entire issue of the money being REAL MONEY. Money that will be keeping the economy alive. Taxing is one thing, but taking it is an entire other issue. Taking Pensions from politicians takes one big-a$$ arrow from their corruption quiver.

 

[ddawg]

Nessie brother man, See my post above. I'm all for every public employee getting their retirements....but I'm trying "save them from their own personal self destruction". I can't help those who choose to do something that is killing them. Read my post #4520 super super close. I'm confident I'm on to something here. Real dollars in the system are MUCH much more powerful than "pretend" dollars on a mythical Governmental ledger. A dollar in an IRA actually exists in the economy. They are real dollars that are given (in the form of an investment vehicle) to companies A, B, and C.....and X, Y, and Z. They have the ability to turn my dollar into $.50, or the ability to turn my dollar into $2. Either way it is real......and I can take it from them whenever I want. Now, those Pension dollars don't actually exist. They are make believe. No where on the planet earth can you go take a Pension dollar. The only time they exist is when someone actually cuts a check....but until then they are not "active" in the economy. To remove something from the economy that doesn't actually exist is easy....because it is make-believe. To remove an actual tangeable material item is a completely different story.

+1. Exactly. I have had this exact discussion with union management on my job. They have actually told me - "The size of govt. obligation for wages, benefits, and retirement Do Not Matter. The govt. cannot run out of money. If they need more, they just print more." That is a pretty darn close quote of about 3 discussions I had one on one with my union management. (mangt. translated = VP on up). That's the crux of the problem - they sincerely believe the govt. cannot ever run out of money - ever. their obligations just don't matter. The problem is, there are also politicians sitting across the negotiation table that believe the exact same thing. An endless supply money tree that never wilts.

 

[phoenix9]

+1. Exactly. I have had this exact discussion with union management on my job. They have actually told me - "The size of govt. obligation for wages, benefits, and retirement Do Not Matter. The govt. cannot run out of money. If they need more, they just print more." That is a pretty darn close quote of about 3 discussions I had one on one with my union management. (mangt. translated = VP on up). That's the crux of the problem - they sincerely believe the govt. cannot ever run out of money - ever. their obligations just don't matter. The problem is, there are also politicians sitting across the negotiation table that believe the exact same thing. An endless supply money tree that never wilts.

The Fed can print money....no one else can....that would be called counterfitting....even at the Government level...and the Fed is going to very quietly (all the while "pretending" to be aghast) let these Municipalities walk from their obligations. The Blueprint was cast this week in San Diego and San Jose. That would be why San Diego and San Jose are going to walk away from their Pension obligations....you might want to have those said Union Managers learn from a little bit of history. If I was sitting on a Union Board, I would be sitting down with the Municipal government to negotiate a pension conversion to personal IRAs over the next 25 years to protect both the employees and the Municipality. ...or they could just sit and play their fiddle while Rome burns to the ground...their choice.

 

[ddawg]

The Fed can print money....no one else can....that would be called counterfitting....

Of course it's @ the Federal level. That's what they were referring to.

 

[Advntrus2pointoh]

....and as soon as she hits "my vein", I withdraw. "Tax the other guy? Sure! I'm a complete idiot that way!"....just like half the Country. "Tax me? Hooooold on a minute...." I may have just got a mathematical bone in my body. You make a very valid point.....but at least there is a check/balance of stupidity involved in this scheme....unlike sending Mildred the Postal worker to welfare after she retires and we f--k her out of her make-believe pension. ....But....no one has still addressed the entire issue of the money being REAL MONEY. Money that will be keeping the economy alive. Taxing is one thing, but taking it is an entire other issue. Taking Pensions from politicians takes one big-a$$ arrow from their corruption quiver.

EXACTLY! If the Political class never had SS funds or Pension funds to 'Play with" in the first place, they would have been forced to work budgets a little closer to reality. They would have had to come to the tax payers to fund the Government in a more realistic way. Instead, their 'Creative accounting" gimmicks have gone Bernie Madoff on us all. Now I have to choose between taking my neighbors pension, Borrowing money, and raising taxes. Worse. Probably all three. Mayberry

 

[ddawg]

The Blueprint was cast this week in San Diego and San Jose. That would be why San Diego and San Jose are going to walk away from their Pension obligations....you might want to have those said Union Managers learn from a little bit of history.

The problem with the union managers I am specifically referring to, none of them, from the pres. to VP, to all the collective board members - not one college degree. No accredited formal financial training. None. It's all across the table, behind closed doors negotiation experience. Fine. But, the financial times today are different. It requires serious and complex budgetary understanding combined with sharp pencils. No more "kicking the can down the road." Budgets are being severely being curtailed. Tax revenue is declining. A new day has dawned.

 

[phoenix9]

Of course it's @ the Federal level. That's what they were referring to.

I figured as much...just being facetious...but, the Fed ain't gonna come to anyone's help. They just gonna all pretend to be all flustuated at the goins' on!

 

[Keith Grey]

You keep framing this in such a way, as to say that we have "Choices" here. We don't. Between Pension benefits, SS and Medicare........We are OUT of choices. You simply canot raise taxes enough to cover them. 10 years, 20, 30 however many years a worker has been promissed them. You seem to be missing the point to the discussion. It isn't "If" Pensons and other programs will be cut. It's "When" under "Whos terms" and by "How Much". The longer it takes to realize this, the less money there is going to be for ANY OF THIS! The interest on our debt is growing every single day. And it's compounding every single day. Those interest payments represent cash that could be used to offset some of the cuts. Instead it looks like we are going to do what Greece has done. Just argue until the debt eats us alive, and become 70-80-100% of the taxes collected. The longer Government workers and Retirees in general take to wake up to this fact, the more pain that will be felt. Even as I write this, our President is holding another press Conference on the Economy. More of the same he says. Borrow more money and throw it at the States to keep Government workers on the payrol. Not MY words....HIS. Taxpayers have had enough. It's come to the table...........or? Mayberry

Sure we have choices. Now is the time to thin the herd of cheap labor with immigration enforcement and tariffs, renegotiate the majority of our debt with the threat of crashing the unsecured currency game for everyone, AND STOP INCREASING OUR DEBT LIMIT. For Mark, Your turn brother, Show me the math that proves increases in our debt limit is a solution rather than the same thing that has been happening.

 

[phoenix9]

Sure we have choices. Now is the time to thin the herd of cheap labor with immigration enforcement and tariffs, renegotiate the majority of our debt with the threat of crashing the unsecured currency game for everyone, AND STOP INCREASING OUR DEBT LIMIT. For Mark, Your turn brother, Show me the math that proves increases in our debt limit is a solution rather than the same thing that has been happening.

I was throwing a bone Pension holders. There is absolutely NO WAY we can afford to both (A) Transition/convert our current pensions to (fully funded) individual accounts, and (B) not go bankrupt. We simply do not have the money....even if we print it....unless you want to pull a "Europe" and stop our economy in its tracks to tackle our debt load over-nite. We could always just walk away from our Pension obligation and screw over 100's of thousands of public workers and be free from the debt immediately if we wanted (a la San Diego, San Jose), but I thought the public workers might want to actually get something for their past 30-40 years of service....but that's just me. Bottom line is we won't be honoring these commitments....we simply do not have the money....even if we print it. No municipality can afford to live up to the promises (San Diego from $43M to $231M in 13 years and San Jose from $75M to $275M in 11 years). If you Amortize the debt burden over 25 years (but actually FIX the problem) we just might have a chance to survive this. We are so far in over our heads right now, that an increase in the debt limit next year is inevitable....and this is coming from the most fiscally conservative person on this board. The $64K question (or is it $15T?) is whether or not we want to actually get truthful with ourselves? Do we want to fix the problem or do we want to play the "it's the other guy's fault" game? Whether you choose "Truth" or "Blame", there is gonna be extreme pain. Truth leads to a fix. Blame leads to delay and ultimate bankruptcy....and you and I both know that if the U.S. ultimately get's in too deep that the entire economic system on the planet collapses and we go back to barbarianism for a couple decades....just hope Russia doesn't drop a couple nukes on Maryland in the meantime.

 

[ddawg]

I was throwing a bone Pension holders. There is absolutely NO WAY we can afford to both (A) Transition/convert our current pensions to (fully funded) individual accounts, and (B) not go bankrupt. We simply do not have the money....even if we print it....unless you want to pull a "Europe" and stop our economy in its tracks to tackle our debt load over-nite. We could always just walk away from our Pension obligation and screw over 100's of thousands of public workers and be free from the debt immediately if we wanted (a la San Diego, San Jose), but I thought the public workers might want to actually get something for their past 30-40 years of service....but that's just me. Bottom line is we won't be honoring these commitments....we simply do not have the money....even if we print it. No municipality can afford to live up to the promises (San Diego from $43M to $231M in 13 years and San Jose from $75M to $275M in 11 years). If you Amortize the debt burden over 25 years (but actually FIX the problem) we just might have a chance to survive this. We are so far in over our heads right now, that an increase in the debt limit next year is inevitable....and this is coming from the most fiscally conservative person on this board. The $64K question (or is it $15T?) is whether or not we want to actually get truthful with ourselves? Do we want to fix the problem or do we want to play the "it's the other guy's fault" game? Whether you choose "Truth" or "Blame", there is gonna be extreme pain. Truth leads to a fix. Blame leads to delay and ultimate bankruptcy....and you and I both know that if the U.S. ultimately get's in too deep that the entire economic system on the planet collapses and we go back to barbarianism for a couple decades....just hope Russia doesn't drop a couple nukes on Maryland in the meantime.

+1. Exactly. All these "insider" guys - both the managing politicians, city managers, state comptroller's, and the union management team - they all know it's a giant "Ponzi scheme." Exactly like Social Security. The truth is - they get away with this type of financial pie in the sky management when you have a prosperous, expanding, growing economy. The crazy over-promising doesn't really rear it's ugly head as long as the economy expands, and the number of employees continues to increase. So the foot print of supporting money in-put is greater than the contractual, entitlement cash outflow. Fast forward to right now. The economy is stagnant with under 2% growth in the USA. Some European countries have seen their economies contract (Greece GDP fell 6.5% 1st Qtr of 2012). The "roll the dice" Ponzi Scheme model no longer works. It is a recipe for disaster in a stagnant or contracting economy. That disaster precipice is where the EU is now perched and scrambling to fix. Your post is spot on Mark. The old "kick the can down the road" and keep your fingers crossed does not work anymore. Sharp pencils, tough choices, grit our teeth and suffer "some" now, or suffer "a lot" later. It is decision time on a large scale.

 

[ddawg]

Mayor Cory Booker, Newark, NJ, is dead to Obama Whitehouse "Obama Official On Cory Booker: 'He's Dead To Us' " Jun 8, 2012 18 By Terrell Jermaine Starr Cory Booker's relationship with President Barack Obama has soured to the point that a top administration official says that the Newark mayor is "dead to us," the New York Post reports." http://newsone.com/2019629/cory-booker/

 

[NorCal]

It seems the great orator is a bit disconnected from the real world.

Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy​

 

[ddawg]

It seems the great orator is a bit disconnected from the real world.

Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy​

Hey NorCal - Bad week for the smartest guy to ever occupy the Whitehouse. (Cough - cough .... )

 

[Keith Grey]

You are a silly Jackass. I am so looking forward to meeting you. It is going to be so much fun. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Really? I actually thought, your last offer to speak like grown men was an offer to talk, but when you go from veiled insults to out right personal attack, you are offering a conversation you do not really want.

 

[ddawg]

Really? I actually thought, your last offer to speak like grown men was an offer to talk, but when you go from veiled insults to out right personal attack, you are offering a conversation you do not really want.

Really? Really. Mr. Keith Grey, you are a duplicitous, arrogant, self aggrandizing *****.

 

[Andy]

Okay guys, take it down a notch.