Liquid cooling...

 

.....and

 

They are more efficient... More power, More heat and fluid is a reliable method to remove it than air. To me the V-Twin air cool, is a pretty old design. But like aviation is a simpler and less expensive concept and like the radial, just a cool engine.

 

The bigger the bore the harder it is to stay compliant. Take a huge super bike like the Ninja 1400. It is a 4 cylinder so each cylinder is only 350 CC's compared to Vic's 868 CC cylinder.
The other 4 cyl bikes get their HP from high RPM's. They may have a shorter stroke too but not sure on that one.

 

More in = more out. When we start opening up the intakes, exhausts, cams, big bores and such we're gaining performance by getting a lot more fuel in and burnt each combustion cycle. More fuel in, more emissions out. It's not limited to air cooled V-twins either, there's more than a few ways to get more power out of a Hyabusa and make it EPA non compliant in the process.

 

i am waiting to see what polaris does to meet the tougher Euro4 requirements. that is the reason for the new hardly engines, with the whole european union having a bigger market than the USA its all about $$$$. adding required ABS is easy but can the current air-oil cooled engines be made compliant????

 

The current Freedom 106 already IS Euro4 compliant as it has been tested and passed in the existing cruisers. My understanding of Euro4 is that each model has to be tested which comes with a high price. Which leads me to believe that models which aren't going to exist much longer, or models that aren't going to keep that engine much longer got dropped while the models that are going to continue, and continue with that engine got the money spent for testing.

In other words, why pay to get the Cross Country tested if it's getting a new engine and will have to be tested all over again in six months? That or maybe cruisers just sell better in Europe so they said screw it with the big touring bikes.

 

Manufacturers covering their a$$es.

 

I may catch some shrapnel for this post but in some ways harley might be doing a better job than victory right now (if this doesn't wake muzza up nothing will) .what I'm refering to is at least trying to maintain the look of an air cooled vtwin and addressing the need for some kind of cooling for the heads. I'm not getting into actual proformance #s . I guess what I'm saying is I hope vic doesn't come out with some 140 hp fire breathing monster engine that looks like shnit just so it can be a proformance motor. That I will eventually have to talk myself into liking.

 

...in some ways harley might be doing a better job than victory right now (if this doesn't wake muzza up nothing will) .what I'm refering to is at least trying to maintain the look of an air cooled vtwin

Not hard to do since the lack of connecting rod tubes leaves the engine looking more like a water cooled Japanese bike (Honda VTX for example) than a "classic" air cooled unit. Especially on the XC/XR/Magnum since the grill in front of the engine looks like it should contain a radiator.

I'm not putting down the styling or anything, just saying that it doesn't have that old skool air cooled look.

 

It does contain a radiator ( radiator = heating or cooling devise), it just has oil not water in it. Put water in it ( as we all already know it's there) and water around the heads and jugs then both cylinders the same temp. easier to control emissions=gain efficiency add horsepower, quiet the engine=easier to make EPA noise specs, easier to "map" the electronics of the fuel injection and timing= also more power and more efficient. Maybe even have the computer in the bike start it's control of the mapping at 1200 RPM, why wait till 2500 ???What are they waiting for????

 

I may catch some shrapnel for this post but in some ways harley might be doing a better job than victory right now (if this doesn't wake muzza up nothing will) .what I'm refering to is at least trying to maintain the look of an air cooled vtwin and addressing the need for some kind of cooling for the heads. I'm not getting into actual proformance #s . I guess what I'm saying is I hope vic doesn't come out with some 140 hp fire breathing monster engine that looks like shnit just so it can be a proformance motor. That I will eventually have to talk myself into liking.

Um yeah. If you don't want to catch shrapnel you should think about what you're saying. Victory has a 17 year head start over Harley at adding cooling to a 4-valve air cooled motor and it still outperforms Harley's latest. First you didn't know that the Freedom 106 has already past Euro4 and now you don't know that Vic's use oil as a coolant since 1999? Dayum. I wouldn't worry about future engines if I were you. IF Victory does come out with a 140 hp fire breather actual riders will be flocking to the brand in droves and the used market will be flooded with slow but pretty bikes for the show and tell crowd.

 

Let's see what they come up with. If it is a restyled fire breathing Vision I know my present bike will be for sale. I am a rider and love the comfort of my Vision but a smoother quieter performance engine would go a long ways to convincing me to make the trade.

 

You guys missed my point,, or maybe I expressed it poorly, or maybe I felt like poking the bear. All I was thinking is I like the look of my engine as it is. With the announcment that victory will focus their attention on being the proformance brand I don't relish the thought of a 1600 cc octane engine for example in my xc because in my opinion they are butt ugly, ( my .02) My rereference to hd was not that I think they proform better than my scoot but that maybe their approach looked more acceptible to me. And Iaboob you are making a lot of assumptions about what I know and have learned riding for 45 years.oh and merry christmas.

 

Agreed, @Oldman47 . Like it or not, I am skeptical as to whether or not we will ever see a next gen freedom engine, courtesy of the sh!thead EPA. I would love to be wrong, but that is the way that I see it. And it's a damned shame because there is so much potential left in this platform, as we continue to see as the aftermarket gurus find new ways to get more out of it. But the f**king EPA will continue to piss in the punch bowl and ultimately drive Polaris to give up on it and go the inevitable next path to decent power output, which is liquid cooling. Which I am OK with, as long as it is a nicely developed and sweetly packaged mill that STARTS at 120HP. Anything other than that and I am not interested. I'll keep what I have and grow that engine.

 

Why is everyone so down on liquid cooling? It is possible to build a bike that has a big radiator and still not see it or the hoses. Lots of aftermarket mods you can do to dress it up, or customize it your self. Looks should not be the issue. If you can make it run cooler, you have more room to increase power. (Not saying it can't be done without a radiator, just a little easier) Here is the radiator on my M109R. I really don't feel that it detracts from the looks of the bike.

 

Why is everyone so down on liquid cooling? It is possible to build a bike that has a big radiator and still not see it or the hoses.

Water cooling means more parts that can fail, more routine maintenance that has to be performed, etc. Water cooling also means more weight.

 

 

Weight, I understand.

Parts that could fail and maintanence is a bit of a stretch tho. Coolant systems only need to be flushed once every few years depending on the type of coolant used, hoses and thermostats rarely fail, are easy to replace, and normally will show signs before they fail. When was the last time you were stranded in your car for a coolant system problem that you didn't know about before you left home?

 

When was the last time you were stranded in your car for a coolant system problem that you didn't know about before you left home?

In the past 3 years I've had 2 friends whose bikes were down because of damage to the cooling system. One from a rock that damaged the pipe running between the pump and radiator on his Honda 1300. The other had a damaged reservoir after the bike was dropped.

 

4 cylinders and water cooling can be done tastefully as this, one of my former bikes, attests.

If you view it from the right angle it also had a big radiator but that is not what jumped out at you when you saw the bike. Yes, it is a v-4 engine and most of the finning is just for people who think air cooling looks better. The other 2 head pipes are on the other side.

 

No worries bro.

 

4 cylinders and water cooling can be done tastefully as this, one of my former bikes, attests.

If you view it from the right angle it also had a big radiator but that is not what jumped out at you when you saw the bike. Yes, it is a v-4 engine and most of the finning is just for people who think air cooling looks better. The other 2 head pipes are on the other side.

With a whopping 79 HP... from a castrated V-max engine with fake cooling fins. Yeah, no wonder the American cruiser market didn't go nuts over these.

 

Triumph can hide the radiator, so can Victory.

 

Dude, it's hideous. :box1: :rofl2:

My brother, I am so glad it was you who said that...

I waited with great anticipation to see the M-109R and ride it. We got a couple at the dealership... I rode one... Scratched that one off the list. Nope.

Coming back from Ocean City in the summer, I was challenged by an M-109R. That went badly for him.

 

Hahaha! Thats about like saying you beat a stock Hayabusa on a little GSXR 1000........ that just happens to have a turbo on it. WoHoo!!!!

What stock cruiser would it not have ended badly for? The only performance mods available for the M109 are intake, exhaust, PCV or PowerPro, and a TRE. Its not like you are going to run one with cams and a BBK. They don't exist. You know as well as I do that stock vs stock, an KP wouldn't stand a chance! I love my Magnum, but even with the mods I've done to it, my M109 would beat it.

How did this turn into an internet drag race anyway? All I was saying is that having a liquid cooled bike doesn't have to look like an after thought like the bikes below. It can be dressed up and made to look good. You don't have to see the radiator and hoses on a liquid cooled bike. Look at the F6B's radiator or even the Valkyrie.

It doesn't matter what everyone wants. The emissions requirements are only going get worse. If you want to continue to ride, at some point, all you will be able to get will be liquid cooled bikes.

 

That or maybe cruisers just sell better in Europe so they said screw it with the big touring bikes.

That's my thinking. Europe is not about bigger is better. They have little streets, little cars, and little motorcycles. If you have more than 500cc's you are on a big bike. A Cross bike in europe is like an 18 wheeler.

 

Why is everyone so down on liquid cooling? It is possible to build a bike that has a big radiator and still not see it or the hoses. Lots of aftermarket mods you can do to dress it up, or customize it your self. Looks should not be the issue. If you can make it run cooler, you have more room to increase power. (Not saying it can't be done without a radiator, just a little easier) Here is the radiator on my M109R. I really don't feel that it detracts from the looks of the bike.

View attachment 122641

View attachment 122657

Looks complicated it me, like opening the hood on a modern car and seeing what appears to a Nuke reactor...

 

It is coolant flowing through a motor, not nuclear physics!!!

Cars have been liquid cooled for 100 years give or take. Some of the best looking classics made the radiator the center piece up front and designed the rest of the car around it. I really didn't think there would be this many against it, especially as retro as the Indians are and how many like that look.

 

4 cylinders and water cooling can be done tastefully as this, one of my former bikes, attests.

If you view it from the right angle it also had a big radiator but that is not what jumped out at you when you saw the bike. Yes, it is a v-4 engine and most of the finning is just for people who think air cooling looks better. The other 2 head pipes are on the other side.

Bet it was smooth...

 

Dam right it was extremely smooth, and reliable. Not a nice roomy modded Vic by any stretch but one of my favorites along the way as far as ride and dependability as a smaller bike.

 

I love my Hard Ball. The future of victory I see in the modern style, Indian is old school style. The EU4 rules are for me a horror. Canbus ? I must go all 2 years to the check (TÜV ) wiht canbus the TÜV can see that I have tuned my mapping.
My bike have the stage 1 mapping and nobody can see this the same is with PC5. Tuning is in future not simple. Next the police can check the new bikes wiht a small device. is your bike not in rules the police blocked your bike and you bring the bike by truck home. I hate our rules. Rules for helmet, light,mirrors, wheels, exhaust ......
In the USA, you are lucky guys you have more freedom.

 

Wow thats brutal.

 

More than happy not to have water cooling. I didn't want to be checking coolant levels or anything else to do with water cooled motors.
Also:
I am also glad not to be oiling a chain. Not interested in kick starters. Wanted a bike with reverse. All part of my decision making when I purchased my vision.