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Why did Polaris stick with Indian motor and not Victory?

11K views 84 replies 34 participants last post by  Rags 
#1 ·
I am sure this has been discussed to death, but I am new to my Victory. However, I have watched videos of Harley Engine vs Victory and very impressed with Victory engines. So why did Polaris stick with Indian engine? And are there videos discussing these differences?
 
#2 ·
Polaris didn't scrap everything that they learned from victory when they gave up on the brand and doubled down on the Indian brand. The motor they used in the Scout was developed for the Victory Octane and my understanding is that the new power plus engine platform began development under Victory. Indian had a developed engine platform when Victory was shut down that has lasted a few years and the new technology from what was in development is hitting the streets now.
 
#4 ·
Polaris developed the Indian in general to appeal to HD riders and grab the “nostalgia”. So therefore created the pushrod motor too.

also, I think early on the plan was to have both brands. Old Guard and New Guard as it were.

presuming the “Harley vs Victory” videos you are referring to is the 5 part series from Mike at Tucson Victory?
Some folks have mixed feelings about those vids as they are quite “sales-y”
 
#6 ·
Polaris developed the Indian in general to appeal to HD riders and grab the "nostalgia". So therefore created the pushrod motor too.

also, I think early on the plan was to have both brands. Old Guard and New Guard as it were.

presuming the "Harley vs Victory" videos you are referring to is the 5 part series from Mike at Tucson Victory?
Some folks have mixed feelings about those vids as they are quite "sales-y"
Yes those videos. I would hate to be the guy who is being talked to like a child and just shakes his head.
 
#5 ·
Marketing, or lack of same. Always mystified me why Victory would take an absolutely bullet proof single overhead cam motor and scrap it in favor of a pushrod motor. The liquid cooled motors are a whole 'nother game.
By the way, if I hadn't mentioned it yet, welcome to the VOG. You have one of the best year Victorys made, I owned an '06 KP, an '06 Hammer and an '07 Hammer. 2 of the 3 were rescued orphans, did some maintenance on them and rode them very hard. They seemed to be faster than the 106's. Spanked more than one 106.
I now own a 2012 CR, not a bad bike but wish I had my '06 KP back.
Just made a run to KY and back on my CR. had made the run 3 years ago on my KP except for the storage I preferred the KP.
 
#7 ·
There was no "Indian" motor to Polaris to stick with. The first iteration of 'Indian' from CA wasn't 'Indian' at all except for the name on the tank. The entire motorcycle was simply assembled parts you could have purchased from J&P Cycles and assembled in your garage

The second iteration of 'Indian' out of NC was another H-D clone Evo motor with rounded cylinders and a ton of chrome. Build quality was vastly improved but no one at that version of Indian had a clue about the market. They were mostly venture capitalists and everyone knew the brand was soon to die again.

When Polaris bought the rights to the Indian name, they started with, more or less, a blank sheet. But bear in mind they had many years of designing and building Victory Motorcycles to rely upon. Many of those same Polaris designers were simply used for the Polaris Indian line. The Polaris designers that had so many unique ideas and direction for Victory, apparently had nothing left for Polaris Indian. They simply copied many decades old design cues from actual Indian motorcycles. Then incorporated (copied) the work of other designers into their version of an Indian motorcycle. Again, Polaris didn't actually add much of their own touches to Indian and they still haven't. The first Polaris Indian motor had to be an air cooled twin, downdraft exhaust, lots of chrome etc etc etc. It had to had big fat valanced fenders etc etc etc. Again, these were all decades old design cues that Polaris incorporated. There was nothing 'new' to the bikes.

IMHO, the first series Polaris Indians were modern versions of decades old actual Indian designs. The second series mostly copied the aesthetics from H-D. The third series of Indian's most successful bikes, The Scout and the Challenger, came directly from the Polaris Victory Motorcycles team years before.

The Indian Scout was 100% designed and built as a Victory. It was shown to the Victory dealers as their long awaited entry level bike. Only to be taken back by Polaris and slightly redesigned and then released as the Indian Scout. In the redesign to make the Octane the Scout, Polaris mostly just changed the rear suspension angle (hurting, not helping it), changed the gearing in the transmission (less performance) and changed to aesthetics to say Indian. Nothing, absolutely nothing on the Scout said 'Indian' but the name on the tank. But it sure looked like it belonged in the Victory line up.

The Indian Challenger was also 100% designed and built by Polaris Victory to be the new version of the Vision/Cross Country. The engine and drivetrain along with design drawings were also shown to Victory dealers so they could see what to expect soon. Again, Polaris pulled the design from Victory, killed the Victory brand and then released the Challenger as a new Indian that again borrows heavily from H-D design aesthetics.

I honestly don't know what happened to the design teams in the motorcycle division at Polaris. They just don't seem to have anything unique left in the tank for Polaris Indian. Sure they incorporated better bluetooth and Ride By Wire. But aside from that, there really isn't anything new and exciting. As has been said, the Indian name seems to dictate they keep decades old design cues. Very similar to H-D. The older Indian owners seem to prefer the aesthetics of 'older' looking bikes to the aesthetics of the Challenger type.

Of course the Challenger is a powerhouse, it was designed for the muscle brand at Polaris, not the nostalgia brand.
 
#8 ·
There was no "Indian" motor to Polaris to stick with. The first iteration of 'Indian' from CA wasn't 'Indian' at all except for the name on the tank. The entire motorcycle was simply assembled parts you could have purchased from J&P Cycles and assembled in your garage

The second iteration of 'Indian' out of NC was another H-D clone Evo motor with rounded cylinders and a ton of chrome. Build quality was vastly improved but no one at that version of Indian had a clue about the market. They were mostly venture capitalists and everyone knew the brand was soon to die again.

When Polaris bought the rights to the Indian name, they started with, more or less, a blank sheet. But bear in mind they had many years of designing and building Victory Motorcycles to rely upon. Many of those same Polaris designers were simply used for the Polaris Indian line. The Polaris designers that had so many unique ideas and direction for Victory, apparently had nothing left for Polaris Indian. They simply copied many decades old design cues from actual Indian motorcycles. Then incorporated (copied) the work of other designers into their version of an Indian motorcycle. Again, Polaris didn't actually add much of their own touches to Indian and they still haven't. The first Polaris Indian motor had to be an air cooled twin, downdraft exhaust, lots of chrome etc etc etc. It had to had big fat valanced fenders etc etc etc. Again, these were all decades old design cues that Polaris incorporated. There was nothing 'new' to the bikes.

IMHO, the first series Polaris Indians were modern versions of decades old actual Indian designs. The second series mostly copied the aesthetics from H-D. The third series of Indian's most successful bikes, The Scout and the Challenger, came directly from the Polaris Victory Motorcycles team years before.

The Indian Scout was 100% designed and built as a Victory. It was shown to the Victory dealers as their long awaited entry level bike. Only to be taken back by Polaris and slightly redesigned and then released as the Indian Scout. In the redesign to make the Octane the Scout, Polaris mostly just changed the rear suspension angle (hurting, not helping it), changed the gearing in the transmission (less performance) and changed to aesthetics to say Indian. Nothing, absolutely nothing on the Scout said 'Indian' but the name on the tank. But it sure looked like it belonged in the Victory line up.

The Indian Challenger was also 100% designed and built by Polaris Victory to be the new version of the Vision/Cross Country. The engine and drivetrain along with design drawings were also shown to Victory dealers so they could see what to expect soon. Again, Polaris pulled the design from Victory, killed the Victory brand and then released the Challenger as a new Indian that again borrows heavily from H-D design aesthetics.

I honestly don't know what happened to the design teams in the motorcycle division at Polaris. They just don't seem to have anything unique left in the tank for Polaris Indian. Sure they incorporated better bluetooth and Ride By Wire. But aside from that, there really isn't anything new and exciting. As has been said, the Indian name seems to dictate they keep decades old design cues. Very similar to H-D. The older Indian owners seem to prefer the aesthetics of 'older' looking bikes to the aesthetics of the Challenger type.

Of course the Challenger is a powerhouse, it was designed for the muscle brand at Polaris, not the nostalgia brand.
Amen to that brother, you forgot the Amen. Nicely stated.
 
#9 ·
There isn't a whole lot of anything more to incorporate into a motorcycle when you think of it. OK, Harley has the Livewire. Victory had the Empulse years earlier. Both are /were over priced toys, not much better than the 15 cent a minute rented Lime and Bird street scooters. Harley has the Tri-Glide. Indian may come up with a 3 wheeler if they can somehow get a bead on the desire from the public for one. But $50K is a ridiculous price for a ridiculous item. Much like the Tesla vehicles. The only thing left really is fancy paint and safety chrome pieces. Just a few thoughts from a grizzled old guy!
 
#10 ·
Answering the thread title question: Because Polarass upper management are idiots.
They missed a great opportunity to have both the high end Indian line and a more affordable Victory line.
 
#11 ·
I will say this. They are getting some insane miles on these pushrod air-cooled indian motors. With very minimal issues. And I’m happy it’s a one oil service for everything like my Vic vs 3 oils in 3 places like my Harleys. But there is a guy I know lake city larry who recently cracked 400,000 on his 2015 Indian. And never been in the motor. But as mentioned above I also agree with reasoning of going back to a pushrod motor. For the draw of the old school Harley boys who can’t see beyond that.
 
#13 ·
Oh and here’s my contribution to the Polarass Indian. When our local wigwam had all those beautiful Indians for sale and yes they tried me and tried me ( cause one of the mechanics wanted my bike ) I just said no thanks and good luck. Keep up the good work. Then I got the attitude whenever I visited so one day I saw a 2016 MagnumX1 Stealth on the lot. Just freshly traded in. Marched right in and bought that fuk’r for my wife. Lol. You shoulda seen the looks on their faces. Stole that ride too ! Adios bitches!!!
 
#14 ·
Yea I remember getting the "letter" from Polaris informing me they'd give me up to 3k dollars credit on a new Indian if I traded my XCT in on one. I remember thinking they can't be serious?? Well over 4 years later people still think my 13 Vic is brand new. I detail the piss out of it. Therapy for us old guys.

It has 65k miles and still makes that new whirling sound a tight engine makes and no valve train clatter ehen I start it. Now if Polaris had kept the line and shoehorned that new challenger engine in it with upgraded electronics they would have had a repeat customer.

I'm willing to bet most of us who owned an earlier XCT or Vision might have be looking to that as a replacement for our dependable bikes someday. But no, Polaris let us down.

If I do get another bike it will most likely be the DCT Gold Wing.
 
#15 ·
Yea I remember getting the "letter" from Polaris informing me they'd give me up to 3k dollars credit on a new Indian if I traded my XCT in on one. I remember thinking they can't be serious?? Well over 4 years later people still think my 13 Vic is brand new. I detail the piss out of it. Therapy for us old guys.

It has 65k miles and still makes that new whirling sound a tight engine makes and no valve train clatter ehen I start it. Now if Polaris had kept the line and shoehorned that new challenger engine in it with upgraded electronics they would have had a repeat customer.

I'm willing to bet most of us who owned an earlier XCT or Vision might have be looking to that as a replacement for our dependable bikes someday. But no, Polaris let us down.

If I do get another bike it will most likely be the DCT Gold Wing.
I still have it....
 
#18 ·
Indians are selling very well so Polaris read the market and responded. While we love our Vics many of the designs were just too polarizing for the cruiser/ tour bike buyers out there. The Vision like the Honda Rune are either love it or hate it designs.
The elephant in the room was Harley and Polaris had to tap that cruiser/ tour market with familiar designs. Look at all the Japanese cruisers, they all have HD similar styling.
 
#21 ·
The new Chieftain / Harley look alike / standard fenders……. Could be a hit with a little more styling. Throw in the challenger motor. Redesign the in your face dash. Larger floor board and you have the closest thing to a Cross bike that Indian can muster. Only then would I be interested as I fit on anything with my size. It’s the motor that will get me interested mostly. I’m all about the motor. The 116 doesn’t do it for me as I like to ring out the throttle from time to time.
 
#24 ·
The new Chieftain / Harley look alike / standard fenders……. Could be a hit with a little more styling. Throw in the challenger motor. Redesign the in your face dash. Larger floor board and you have the closest thing to a Cross bike that Indian can muster. Only then would I be interested as I fit on anything with my size. It's the motor that will get me interested mostly. I'm all about the motor. The 116 doesn't do it for me as I like to ring out the throttle from time to time.
I can agree with some of that Vic. I do prefer my limited platform better myself. But that mite be because in the last 40 yrs of my Bagger time mine have all looked the same and I'm bored with the look. Not to mention
My platform handles much better at 100+ speeds. Like you I want that motor. My 111 does a great job with definitely enough TQ for me anyway. The in your face dash I didn't care for in the beginning. But it's grown on me to where now I love it and the ride command is just a major bonus performs well. I can live with the Harley lookalike thing if I had to in order to get that motor if that what it comes down to. But as of now I still love this bike as is. As I've said if nothing on the horizon in the next 2 years I'll be looking for a queen like mine.
 
#22 ·
Polaris had 2 out the 3 American built motorcycles, now they only have 1. Yes, the Indian brand sells better. But Polaris didn't have to murder their own brand to care for their adopted brand. Doing so still has serious repercussions from a huge segment of the biker community.

Never trust someone who murdered their own to babysit yours.

I fully understand the business is business aspect of things. Thankfully both Wine and Menetto are gone.
 
#28 ·
Polaris had 2 out the 3 American built motorcycles, now they only have 1. Yes, the Indian brand sells better. But Polaris didn't have to murder their own brand to care for their adopted brand. Doing so still has serious repercussions from a huge segment of the biker community.

Never trust someone who murdered their own to babysit yours.

I fully understand the business is business aspect of things. Thankfully both Wine and Menetto are gone.
It's a business decision. Having two competing lines of bikes is not sustainable. Especially for a company who mainly manufactures off road and water power sports.
 
#25 ·
I swore I would never get rid of my Victory's and get an Indian. I also swore to never own another Harley, not that I hate Harley's but I do hate passing 50 bikes that look just like mine. You don't have to worry about that with a Victory or Indian,, at least around here. But as time went on I kept wondering what would happen if I broke down 1000 miles from home on the Vision. Have broken down 200 miles from home and it sucked ,but 1000 miles is a different story and with no dealers now and parts getting harder to get I started changing my mind about getting something newer, less miles and easier to get parts for in an emergency. With Harley out of the picture the next best thing to a Victory was Indian. After riding all of the models at the demo event the only one I remotely liked was the Roadmaster so I got one. Is the Roadmaster as good as the Vision? in some ways it's better but in other ways it's not as good. But, I can get parts and accessories easily,, for now anyway. For shorter trips I still have the Magnum so the being far from home worry is not there.
 
#30 ·
Just returned from a 3500 mi.ride, AZ to KY and back. Rode an additional 300 or so while I was there. Took all the old US and state highways whenever possible. US 60 and US 54 comprised most of it. I felt more comfortable on my Vic than I ever did on a Harley. There aren't many gas stops going that route, much less dealers. Have made that run twice now on Vics one on an '06 KP, this time on a '12 CR. The only glitch I've had was a flat just outside of Roswell on the KP. DO NOT go to the Harley dealer in Roswell. He knew he had the only tire available.Believe me I paid big.
Told one of my cousins a Victory is the only motorcycle I'd trust to ride where I do since I ride alone.
I'm 75 soon to be 76 and have been riding just short of 60 years.
Victory, the motorcycle I always wanted.
 
#33 ·
#29 ·
I disagree. Having a unique ‘power cruiser’ line along with a ‘heritage’ line was and could have remained great. They were ‘competing’ with themselves and they ‘won’ no matter which Polaris brand was purchased. They could have easily adjusted the manufacturing numbers and the investment as needed for each line.

IMHO, part of the ‘problem’ was the designers and the engineers had completely run out of ideas on what to do with Indian after they came out with the initial bikes. That’s been proven by Indian then copying H-D design cues and then taking what they did for Victory and coming out with the Challenger.

Polaris Indian, going forward, can’t continue to copy aesthetics or take from Victory because they already spent those ‘assets’. The next ‘new’ bike will hopefully be new and unique.
 
#32 ·
The Indian motor is different. At least they get a knock sensor built into it so can push the tuning on it until it's knocking.

I hate the look of Harleys, always will be an old man bike to me because they have looked exactly the same since 1960 ish?
Reboot Indian with the huge fenders and rolling monument of chrome was fugly as well. Actually don't mind the fenders but the giant chrome fairing blinding me as they approached on road was enough to piss me off.

Indian is slowly the last few years moving closer to bikes that appeal to me with the dark horse versions. Blacked out motors with bright colors, open front fender, etc.

Waiting for a fork mounted fairing Challenger motor garage queen on the used market in another half dozen years for $10-15k. I just need Polaris to get it on the market so I can buy it from a nice old biker looking to retire from two wheels. That's how I got my Victory that I sure wouldn't buy new.
 
#36 ·
If this is the Indian Pursuit then I'm back in the fence. I imderstand that this patent drawing targets the motor and not necessarily the styling of the bike. Thanks f that's the case then what I see here is possibly the next Cross bike with an Indian badge on it. They may be throwing us off with the fenders and the big ass windshield. It also looks like a new Chief styled bike also. Hmmmmmm
Font Line Communication Device Art Circle
 
#38 ·
@slickvic gonna have to stay on the fence till the full release of it and the models it comes in. But because it comes in a limited I'm thinking we're not seeing everything with what's showing. I find it very hard to believe that with that fairing and it's obvious the ride command is in there that's my inner fairing also. That there's not a model with bags to boot. Tourpak wise I'd buy the model without it. The one on my chieftain is a HD and I'm sure I can make it work like I did this. My limited was 5000 cheaper than a roadmaster and there was plenty on there I didn't want to begin with. So it cost me 1200 to put a detachable tourpak on which held more and was 35 pounds lighter. But we will have to see when they release them what they actually consist of I'm thinking. It reads right in that article what we see is not necessarily what we're going to get
 
#41 ·
I'm curious and excited at the same time. It looks to me that Polarass is seeing the error of their ways and trying to make good. They're almost there but the copying HD isn't going to do it.
 
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#40 ·
so they could sell junk with an indian logo, because that is where the money is .... polaris ALWAYS wanted Indian, but back in the 90s they couldnt aquire the brand. so they built Vic from the ground up.

and should have stayed with it imo
Not that I'm gonna jump on it anytime soon but If they can make an Indian that is basically a Victory with a Challenger motor then I can consider that as a replacement if ever I need one. At this stage of the game it's more of a want thing than a need thing and right now I don't need or want. Polarass did it before and they can do it again. They built Victory and they're great bikes. They can make great Indians too. With Wino and Minute man (Menneto) out of the picture we may have some nice modern Indians coming down the pike but Polarass ought not loose sight of what Indian truly is to so many that wanted and love this brand. They need to keep a nostalgic ….Vintage line. Meaning the big fender bikes.
 
#45 ·
not true…look at other big companies that have done it…Ford & Mercury, Chevy & Pontiac…

wait….never mind.
Dodge and Plymouth
 
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#47 ·
I'm with slickvic. Just bought my second Victory when they killed the brand. Left me high and dry for accessories. Love the way the Vic makes power. Looked at the new Indian Chief and wondered why it only makes 75 hp. No thanks.
79 horsepower isn't anything to get excited about, but 111lb-ft at the wheel out of the box is pretty good.
 
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