I'm throwing this out there to get more information based on a conversation I had with the owner of Best Buy Polaris in Ft. Pierce.
I've read pretty much nothing but glowing reports about how great Lloyd is and how great his products are but without even mentioning Lloyd by name, simply talking about how to increase the HP and TQ on my Cross Country Jim blurts out, "Whatever you do DO NOT let Lloyd touch your motor"!
He then goes on to explain how Lloyd is personally responsible for 2 dealers in the NE going out of business due to blown motors and how the engineers at Victory are very anti Lloyd and wish he would stop putting customer's motors at risk with his power packages. He also relates personal horror stories about Lloyd'z modified motors that he's had come into his shop.
Pretty darn harsh words from a dealer with nothing to gain or lose and without even being asked about Lloyd directly.
While it's true that regardless what I do with the 106 motor a CC is never going to be as quick as a sub $10K Japanese sport bike but that doesn't mean I don't want it to have significant punch when I twist the throttle.
I'd really like to get to the 110/120 number at the rear wheel with this motor and I think that's entirely doable without getting into the motor beyond the top end. Porting, cam, exhaust and intake are tried and true methods of extracting the most from a motor without shortening it's lifespan significantly.
It seems Lloyd has done some nice work with cams and intakes on the Visions and from what I've heard the intake on the CC doesn't need as much help as the Vision and since I already have the stage 1 I'm thinking cams and a tune are the ticket. However, what Lloyd offers right now is only about half of what I think is the optimal setup and I don't see anyone on the horizon working on the last two pieces to my puzzle, the head porting and a proper reprogram of the ECM. I'll forgo the ported heads but I'm really not into the piggyback fuelers, they are recipes for disaster, I've seen the results first hand. Besides, they don't allow you to extend the rev limiter so you are leaving a lot on the table.
A package of consisting of cams designed to flow up to 6500 RPM, performance air filter, stage 1 pipes and a correct ECM calibration file with a 6500 rpm redline is what I want. That should be easily under $2k installed and well under $2500 with flowed and ported heads. At this time no one makes it.
Call me spoiled but I spent the last 8 years tuning V-Rod motors with various iterations of their Race Tuner and have had both personal and associated issues with Powercommanders and Techlusion style pulse width modulators. It's not surprising that people sing the praise of the VFC and PCV considering that's all you're accustomed to having.
It's interesting to note that there is one company that has access to the ECM, S&S. Apparently they have a partnership with Victory that I suspect runs deeper than is obvious from what you can glean from their website.
As for the give and take of low end torque vs. high end HP a.k.a. the desire to extend the rev limit to 6500+ I disagree with the premise that they are mutually exclusive. I can site many examples of V-Twin motors making well over 100 ft-lbs of torque from 2000 RPM up that don't fall flat until well past 6000 RPM. It's an engineering problem that's not that difficult to resolve but I think there simply aren't enough bikes out there to make the R&D profitable.
Anyway, this is way beyond the original premise of this thread so I'll keep it for another day. It looks like I'll be having a lot of discussions with Victory, S&S, Lloyd and others over the course of Bikeweek
HC
I guess this topic has rubbed you the wrong way.
I would say Lloyd appears to be one of the most honest people I have meet over the years, there is no BS with him when it comes to preformance on peoples bikes.
He seems to only want them to work at there very best and that is a good thing in this day and age.
Regards
Thank you, that brings the conversation back on point. I'm still baffled about the dealers comments considering I can't seem to find anyone on-line with bad things to day about Lloyd.
the tread may have gotten silly but the initial post wasn't IMHO. I was really shocked at the attitude Jim took without provocation towards Lloyd'z. I didn't go in there asking about Lloyd'z parts or stuff, just stating a desire to build up my XC into something better than it is today and he launched into his attack.
Now I know as well as the next guy that extreme performance can equal extreme failures, it comes with the territory. **** happens when you push the limits and anyone who doesn't understand that should never venture beyond stock.
I'm thinking that some of the "issues" are with people who want the performance but didn't or don't understand that once you break the seal on that motor, Victory and your dealer are off the hook, warranty wise. I understand Magnuson-Moss very well but the reality is it won't protect you when you get into the motor no matter what your dealer or supplier tells you so don't even go there, you'll lose.
Back to the point, it's impossible that everything Lloyd has built has been perfect but reading the Internet it would have you believing that. There's nothing wrong with documenting the bad with the good, it paints the proper picture so you have all the facts. Perhaps the point Jim was trying to make, especially since he doesn't know me from Adam, might be that the 100% success rate portrayed in the Internet is not the whole story. I just think the way he chose to do it was pretty harsh.
As for getting more detail, you can call Jim and ask him, I have no dog in this hunt.
Thanks, that's exactly what happened. I heard a comment (unsolicited BTW) and came here to ask for input, nothing more, nothing less. I have no agenda aside from getting as much information as I can about these bikes.
Mudge, Racky,
I didn't make up this conversation with Jim and I'm not saying I believed him or support his beliefs, just that I know he said it.
actually I didn't see anyone in VOGville agree with the dealer? Most people said they didn't have a problem with Lloyd (including myself), I just see someone (MJW)passing on what he had heard and asking for input? Isn't that what these forums are about?
Me personnally, I am just going to order the turbo kit for my B-King and be happy...lol
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Of course, the exchange of ideas so we all can learn, & avoid mistakes/ or benifit from better products/services etc. Speaking of turbo's, I picked up a flyer @ arizona victory, that advertises the "AEROCHARGER" turbo ( they make one for Victorys now) the stage 1= 125hp @5100rpm's, & 140tq @2250rpm. stage2=146hp &170 tq. simple bolt on set-up. That would make alotta folks happy. check out http://www.aerocharger.com/ or 913-541-0200
Ok, if people have been having trouble with what Lloyd has been doing then I wouldn't want to be on the other side of an Aerocharger debate.....
Aerocharger has a very checkered and sketchy past, wend bankrupt and out of business a few years ago and was resurrected by the current marketer focusing on the MC industry and not the snow mobile industry for which these were originally developed. But I digress.......
Lloyd, I'm glad you responded and Racky, I'm glad you understand that I did not post this with an agenda. I HONESTLY was simply looking for answers to questions raised and being very new to Victory I don't know the long history that is evidenced by the replies to this thread.
Lloyd, will you be in Daytona this year? I would like to stop by and pick your brain, particularly on the tuning issues, access to the ECM for programming and adapting your Vision cams to the Cross bikes.
OK I gotta get in on this Lloydz convo too...
I have an 08 JP.... still warranty. From what I am reading. Lloyds exhaust will work on my bike (of course). And also, it will not kill the warranty on the engine if I put a Lloyds aftermarket pipe on my bike -- this I did not read (or missed it) in this thread.
My questions are two parts.
First, I am looking to get an aggressive looking set of exhaust on the bike. I like the Victory made pipes and I like Lloyds. I was persuaded by dealer to lean towards Vic pipes rather than Lloyds pipes. Granted this might be due to the dealer making a little coin off of Vic pipes, but those were about 300 bucks more then the Lloyds.
What is everyone opinion on Vic pipes vs Lloyds pipes? I guess Lloyd if your around here you can vote too...ha ha.
Can any one explain the difference between the two pipes?
Personally I am not looking for a lot of performance, but rather that COOL factor! So any input would be great.
I suggest you start a new thread with this question so it gets broader visibility, it will get lost in this thread. BTW. pipes alone won't hurt your warranty unless you don't remap your bike or add some fueler and you happen to have a motor problem. Odds are pretty low that you'll have any major issues with either pipe.
Lloyd, I'm glad you responded and Racky, I'm glad you understand that I did not post this with an agenda. I HONESTLY was simply looking for answers to questions raised and being very new to Victory I don't know the long history that is evidenced by the replies to this thread.
Lloyd, will you be in Daytona this year? I would like to stop by and pick your brain, particularly on the tuning issues, access to the ECM for programming and adapting your Vision cams to the Cross bikes.
I've been through this before, why let someone who has NO bearing on my life or future upset me? It's just words, our accomplishments speak volumes.
Stop in and see I'll be at the swap meet off Tomoka Farms Road. I'll give you as much time as scheduling permits. Come with an OPEN mind and leave what you know about Harley's at home and I'll give you a Victory breifing.
I always say if you hang around my trailer and you dont learn something, I didn't do my job.
Lloyd
I'll look you up for sure. BTW, my Harley knowledge is on the Revo motor, I could care less about the TC or any of their other antiques so I don't bring any baggage.
My specialty is electronics but I know enough about the rest of the internal combustion engine to be dangerous
See you in a few weeks.
Mark
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