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smaller victory

7442 Views 131 Replies 27 Participants Last post by  dsjr70
when the dealer meetings come around i always have this conversation with my dealer.i ask him if he thinks victory will come out with a smaller bike.his answer is always the same.no,it wouldnt be cost effective.so how about some input from everyone here on whyvictory should or shouldnt consider doing this.
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satxron said:
Those buts will always get you. They would have to make a motor. A new motor cost millions to make. Even if all they did was clone the 92 and shrink it down it would cost millions to start a sustainable production. Frames, and metal parts would be no problem but that motor and transmission would not be cheap.
They have multiple motors under 1000 cc already in production and they just purchased Swiss Auto's engine division. The Polaris 800 Sportsman has the perfect motor, 760cc liquid cooled.
 

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dsjr70 said:
satxron said:
Those buts will always get you. They would have to make a motor. A new motor cost millions to make. Even if all they did was clone the 92 and shrink it down it would cost millions to start a sustainable production. Frames, and metal parts would be no problem but that motor and transmission would not be cheap.
They have multiple motors under 1000 cc already in production and they just purchased Swiss Auto's engine division. The Polaris 800 Sportsman has the perfect motor, 760cc liquid cooled.
But Don, you can't put a radiator on a Victory......people who would never own a starter bike wouldn't buy it........

walks away whistling.....
 

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phoenix9 said:
dsjr70 said:
satxron said:
Those buts will always get you. They would have to make a motor. A new motor cost millions to make. Even if all they did was clone the 92 and shrink it down it would cost millions to start a sustainable production. Frames, and metal parts would be no problem but that motor and transmission would not be cheap.
They have multiple motors under 1000 cc already in production and they just purchased Swiss Auto's engine division. The Polaris 800 Sportsman has the perfect motor, 760cc liquid cooled.
But Don, you can't put a radiator on a Victory......people who would never own a starter bike wouldn't buy it........

walks away whistling.....
Trouble maker... Dont even get me started on water cooled and how the front of all the cast frame bikes look like they were already designed for a radiator :)
 

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I think that Rush Pro in the snowmobile puts out 120 HP. It would be one horrible looking motorcycle motor. They would have to dress it up somehow.

Never thought on that Don. They already do have a motor, now to make it look good and give it a gearbox.

You have a point.
 

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If Victory ever came out with a "starter bike" with a smaller motor I can almost guarantee you that they would have a motorcycle specific design. No way do they pull a motor from the snowmobile line or any off-road product.

I'm sure Swiss Auto would be involved in some capacity but this would be a Victory only motor.
 

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phoenix9 said:
If Victory ever came out with a "starter bike" with a smaller motor I can almost guarantee you that they would have a motorcycle specific design. No way do they pull a motor from the snowmobile line or any off-road product.

I'm sure Swiss Auto would be involved in some capacity but this would be a Victory only motor.
Interesting, I didnt see that coming from you so I would ask why? Swiss Auto is owned by Polaris and Polaris only purchased the motor division so they have to use it for something, they already have enough off-road and snow mobile motors. Yamaha and Honda have been sharing motors, hubs and other various parts between there off road and on road divisions. Also, as someone mentioned to me yesterday, who's to say their smaller/starter bike has to be a cruiser style, it could be like a European sport cruiser style then you wouldnt see the motor. Before youdismiss that thought think about how progressive the Vision was when it came out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #107 ·
advntrus said:
Not too long ago I was considering buying my 17 year old son a bike. I've since dropped that idea for a variety of reasons.
While I was considering it though, my thought process was torn and confused. Here it goes.
I want my son on a quality "Starter" bike. I'd like him on an American bike. But the only American starter bike is an HD Sportster! That bike is way over priced for what you get. So I guess I'm back to 'Quality" of the bike? Well hell, that leaves me with just the Japanees bikes. Nothing against the Japanees, but I want to buy American.
S*!T..........I just wish Vic made a starter bike so this wasn't so Fing hard!
Shawn
[/
quote]
Shawn,
What about triumph? 800 cc's for under 8 grand easy.Plenty of history and a damn good bike.
 

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I do like the way the Triumph Speedmaster looks and you are right for 8K not a bad price point.
So if Victory builds a 800cc to 1100cc bike then people will cry that they need to build something bigger to compete with a Triumph Rocket 2300cc's is that next.
Sorry Vic does what they do I am good with it
 

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randysfishing said:
So if Victory builds a 800cc to 1100cc bike then people will cry that they need to build something bigger to compete with a Triumph Rocket 2300cc's is that next.
Sorry Vic does what they do I am good with it
No, there is no shortage of large cruisers that dont sell. There is no reason for Vic to try to compete with Triumph in that market but interesting tidbit is Triumph sold 49,000 bikes last year and their best selling model is the Street Triple with the 675 motor....
 

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dsjr70 said:
phoenix9 said:
If Victory ever came out with a "starter bike" with a smaller motor I can almost guarantee you that they would have a motorcycle specific design. No way do they pull a motor from the snowmobile line or any off-road product.

I'm sure Swiss Auto would be involved in some capacity but this would be a Victory only motor.
Interesting, I didnt see that coming from you so I would ask why? Swiss Auto is owned by Polaris and Polaris only purchased the motor division so they have to use it for something, they already have enough off-road and snow mobile motors. Yamaha and Honda have been sharing motors, hubs and other various parts between there off road and on road divisions. Also, as someone mentioned to me yesterday, who's to say their smaller/starter bike has to be a cruiser style, it could be like a European sport cruiser style then you wouldnt see the motor. Before youdismiss that thought think about how progressive the Vision was when it came out.
I don't think reverse engineering is the way to go, personally.
If Victory made another motorcycle " without " the 50 deg air/oiled V-Twin they now have it would have a detrimental effect on the " Victory " brand.
It's bad enough that Victory has already screwed present owners by making models " obsolete " and slashing the price tags so low that one will never ever be able to get a decent resale of their 2 year old machines, and yes, I did not buy my motorcycle for the resale value, but also I thought I was buying a viable alternative to HD.
I love my Vic but the whole " company " makes me a little leery.
Vic does not need a " starter " bike, Vic needs to be more agressive with marketing, treat existing customers a little better, stop de-valueing our machines and get rid of all the crappy dealers.
Of course this is only my opinion, a new Victory owner who really is starting to wonder if I should promote the brand or tell people what's really happening.
It's one thing to be creative, leading edge technology, but at what cost ?
Bring in some new customers and in the meantime push the faithful away.
There are better machines out there, ( in some peoples minds ) way cheaper than a Victory, go buy one, when you grow out of it, buy a Vic.
Flame away...
 

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dsjr70 said:
randysfishing said:
So if Victory builds a 800cc to 1100cc bike then people will cry that they need to build something bigger to compete with a Triumph Rocket 2300cc's is that next.
Sorry Vic does what they do I am good with it
No, there is no shortage of large cruisers that dont sell. There is no reason for Vic to try to compete with Triumph in that market but interesting tidbit is Triumph sold 49,000 bikes last year and their best selling model is the Street Triple with the 675 motor....
Same reason Vic need not waste resources with a " mini-Vic "
They will never get that market, Triumph has been at it for a lot longer.
 

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randysfishing said:
I do like the way the Triumph Speedmaster looks and you are right for 8K not a bad price point.
So if Victory builds a 800cc to 1100cc bike then people will cry that they need to build something bigger to compete with a Triumph Rocket 2300cc's is that next.
Sorry Vic does what they do I am good with it
I'm good with a lot of it, just not the massiveprice slashing of 1 to 2 year old machines.
 

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I think the price slashing is also a technology thing and its effect on marketing.

They had the touring cruiser. A bit square and then there was the transmission scandals causing a reputation issue. They went to a newer transmission and newer 92CI then like overnight they went to the 100CI then the 106. In the middle of all of that we had the recession.

In a bit over a decade they have had over 3 drive lines and introduced several different models. That is amazing progress. Yes Triumph has had 106 years :) but look at just 10 for Vic. I am pretty darn proud of them.

I don't know if that was to make everybody buy a new bike. I think its developmental where they want to make the best bikes you can buy. The unfortunate blowback on that is our bikes got old and yesteryear really quick. I don't really see a lot of sense in me selling my 06 KP now. Its worth very little compared to the initial investment. I like Vic a lot but I don't like them 2500 bucks per year :)

If they made a 4-500 lb. cruiser with some HP I would consider putting it in my garage. I don't need another tank. lol. It would give buyers another choice. How is that bad?
 

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spider said:
I don't think reverse engineering is the way to go, personally.
If Victory made another motorcycle " without " the 50 deg air/oiled V-Twin they now have it would have a detrimental effect on the " Victory " brand.
It's bad enough that Victory has already screwed present owners by making models " obsolete " and slashing the price tags so low that one will never ever be able to get a decent resale of their 2 year old machines, and yes, I did not buy my motorcycle for the resale value, but also I thought I was buying a viable alternative to HD.
I love my Vic but the whole " company " makes me a little leery.
Vic does not need a " starter " bike, Vic needs to be more agressive with marketing, treat existing customers a little better, stop de-valueing our machines and get rid of all the crappy dealers.
Of course this is only my opinion, a new Victory owner who really is starting to wonder if I should promote the brand or tell people what's really happening.
It's one thing to be creative, leading edge technology, but at what cost ?
Bring in some new customers and in the meantime push the faithful away.
There are better machines out there, ( in some peoples minds ) way cheaper than a Victory, go buy one, when you grow out of it, buy a Vic.
Flame away...
Now Spider, you know I would never flame you. You actually touched on another topic with the de-valuing of the bikes. I'm with you on that, bad enough they had to discount the old models but then to drop the MSRP pissed off allotof people including me. I think that alone will drive away more faithful and future customers then a smaller bike.
Let me ask you one simple question and I would like you to answer with your brain and not your heart. Why would Polaris get involved with KTM and Swiss Auto if they werent planning on building a smaller bike?
Somebody above mentioned that they like Vic because it is a marque bike, do you think Polaris wants to be a marque builder? I dont, I think they want to be a major manufacturer and lets face it, the large cruiser market is dead.
 

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spider said:
dsjr70 said:
phoenix9 said:
If Victory ever came out with a "starter bike" with a smaller motor I can almost guarantee you that they would have a motorcycle specific design. No way do they pull a motor from the snowmobile line or any off-road product.

I'm sure Swiss Auto would be involved in some capacity but this would be a Victory only motor.
Interesting, I didnt see that coming from you so I would ask why? Swiss Auto is owned by Polaris and Polaris only purchased the motor division so they have to use it for something, they already have enough off-road and snow mobile motors. Yamaha and Honda have been sharing motors, hubs and other various parts between there off road and on road divisions. Also, as someone mentioned to me yesterday, who's to say their smaller/starter bike has to be a cruiser style, it could be like a European sport cruiser style then you wouldnt see the motor. Before youdismiss that thought think about how progressive the Vision was when it came out.
I don't think reverse engineering is the way to go, personally.
If Victory made another motorcycle " without " the 50 deg air/oiled V-Twin they now have it would have a detrimental effect on the " Victory " brand.
It's bad enough that Victory has already screwed present owners by making models " obsolete " and slashing the price tags so low that one will never ever be able to get a decent resale of their 2 year old machines, and yes, I did not buy my motorcycle for the resale value, but also I thought I was buying a viable alternative to HD.
I love my Vic but the whole " company " makes me a little leery.
Vic does not need a " starter " bike, Vic needs to be more agressive with marketing, treat existing customers a little better, stop de-valueing our machines and get rid of all the crappy dealers.
Of course this is only my opinion, a new Victory owner who really is starting to wonder if I should promote the brand or tell people what's really happening.
It's one thing to be creative, leading edge technology, but at what cost ?
Bring in some new customers and in the meantime push the faithful away.
There are better machines out there, ( in some peoples minds ) way cheaper than a Victory, go buy one, when you grow out of it, buy a Vic.
Flame away...
Don,

I probably should have expanded on that thought. I could see them using proven engineering design cues as a "baseline starting point" to save on initial design costs, but then tearing it down and bringing it back to life in a modified format that would not be recognizable to the naked eye as to it's former heritage. In my mind the ergonomics of a motorcycle would dictate significant changes that would not allow for a drop-in-place swap.

In addition, Victory would have to fight the perception of putting a snowmobile engine, or an ATV engine into one of their motorcycles........The common man won't know the little technical engineering "cheating" that takes place.

Spider,

I respect your opinions a lot and agree with you on the improved marketing, and treating customers better, but I do have a differing opinion on a couple items.

First, none of us are overly happy with the dealership network (yes there are some damn good ones out there, but that seems to be the exception more than the rule), but I think that is the EXACT VERY REASON why coming out with a small bike is so important. If you can take a "complete lineup" to market and give it to the good businessmen out there you will be able to attract a much higher quality if dealerships. As it stands now, no good business person could honestly look at the Victory line and make a commitment as there just isn't enough for them to sell to keep the doors open........no product, no foot traffic......no foot traffic, no sales........so no profits and there is where the best businessmen out there are going to walk away from Victory.

I work for a company that controls over 80% of the distribution network in the US.....when you get that big we have quite a few players that don't exactly love us that much. So why are they so loyal to us? One reason is because we give them the greatest competitive package in the marketplace. If you are with us you have access to the entire industry. If you are against us we will give your competitor that advantage and you will lose the competitive balance.

Next item I think we disagree on is the "obsoleting" of the older bikes. I feel that this is due to the backwards marketing of this industry. No industry has sold "old-school, vintage, heritage, classic" than the motorcycling industry....and we know where that comes from H-D. If you look at any other similar industry (cars, trucks, tractors, recreational vehicles of any kind......etc) you will find that companies roll out new and improved models and engineering designs on a regular basis. When they rolled out the revolutionary new Ford Taurus no one was upset that they basically "obsoleted" the previous models.

Motorcycles, from 1985 until 2004 were the only vehicles where people actually thought they had just purchased an investment. They were mistaken.....think back to 1995 and how many Harley owners did you know that made comments about how Harley's were "investments".........they were right for about 15 minutes.....now they just look foolish. Any bike that never changes design will always depreciate slower, but they also risk losing marketshare. H-D is now paying that price in spades.

The economy, along with companies like Victory, and BMW, and Honda, and Triumph had no choice but to leave that old business model and shoot for cutting edge engineering advancements as a way to keep the lights on. Did it make previous vehicles worth less? Absolutely. But the old model of selling on resale had become an non-existant business model, and I can't blame any manufacturer for protecting their own bottom lines by making huge changes to garner FUTURE marketshare.
 

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spider said:
dsjr70 said:
randysfishing said:
So if Victory builds a 800cc to 1100cc bike then people will cry that they need to build something bigger to compete with a Triumph Rocket 2300cc's is that next.
Sorry Vic does what they do I am good with it
No, there is no shortage of large cruisers that dont sell. There is no reason for Vic to try to compete with Triumph in that market but interesting tidbit is Triumph sold 49,000 bikes last year and their best selling model is the Street Triple with the 675 motor....
Same reason Vic need not waste resources with a " mini-Vic "
They will never get that market, Triumph has been at it for a lot longer.
Why wouldnt they? Triumph doesnt do well in America, there were more sold in Canada then the US last year but their stronghold is Australia.
If I had a choice when I was looking for my first cruiser of an American bike or a Jap bike I would have paid a little more for the American one. Most of us want to buy American but allot of times just cant afford to.
 

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phoenix9 said:
The economy, along with companies like Victory, and BMW, and Honda, and Triumph had no choice but to leave that old business model and shoot for cutting edge engineering advancements as a way to keep the lights on. Did it make previous vehicles worth less? Absolutely. But the old model of selling on resale had become an non-existant business model, and I can't blame any manufacturer for protecting their own bottom lines by making huge changes to garner FUTURE marketshare.
The only thing I would disagree with (not with you Mark) is instead of dropping the MSRP of the Pin and Vegas they should have dropped the bikes. They are both old designs ready to be moth balled. Instead of pissing off your current customer base I would have renamed the X bikes or came out with two more X bikes with real fenders and called them the new and improved Pin and Vegas. If you want to keep changing names dont name them call them a VTX or something.
 

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dsjr70 said:
lets face it, the large cruiser market is dead.
How many large cruisers do you own?
What bikes brought Victory sales back up?Great big ol' baggers, that's what. If the large cruiser market is dead then Victory is wasting their effort with those silly CrossDressers and Visions. Harley is spinning their wheels with the new models carrying 103" and 110" powerplants. If Yamaha doesn't stop with the 113" bagger bikes it will be their undoing, I tell ya.

What are the hot sellers now in the motorcycle marketplace? Baggers. In case no one noticed, baggers killed the chopper craze dead as a doornail. Modern bikers aspire to own a kickass bagger. There are bagger magazines popping up on news stands. Big Dog's flagship model, the Bulldog, is a baggernow. Everybody makes a bagger version of their top bike... even Triumph has a bagger version of the Rocket 3.
THE market is baggers. Victory busted the bagger market WIDE F'IN OPEN last year. It was a smart move and it paid off. So far, Victory is really doing well in that big bagger market. The reviews are favorable. Acceptance is growing exponentially. It seems they found something they do well.
 

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Reading this post has made me reflect on a few recent converstaions at our Victory dealership in New Smyrna Beach FL.
A 65 year old male who started riding 2 yrs ago - riding a metric cruiser (800cc). He considered Vic to be too expensive (what if he didn't enjoy riding as much as he thought) and too powerful (he is 5ft 8 and 170Ibs and a rookie).
Two male Victory owners, whose wives both ride smaller HD's. Both can afford to buy a Vic, love the brand, but are uneasy about the power until they are more experienced riders.
I see 3 additonal Victory sales here.
I prefer to call a potential new model a "smaller" bike , not a "starter" bike, as many markets demand smaller bikes.
It's worth noting that the US motorcycle market is based on leisure use of the product, whereas the rest of the world uses motorcycles for transport first, leisure second.
A "smaller" Vic would fulfill those looking for a price point bike, something with less power, lighter or more nimble. There is volume in these categories and Vic would not need significant market share to make a real difference to their unit sales.The trick is to make iteasy for riders to make a "in-brand transistion" to a big cruiser.
I believe tha Victory will become a full-line motorcycle manufacturer, which could mean a powerplant other than V-twin. For current Vcitory owners, don't be concerned about dilution of the exclusivity of Victory - there is plenty of room on the roads for more!
"Victory offers the refinement of a metric cruiser with the charisma of an American bike".
Wouldn't it be great if more people could experience it.
 

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Half_Crazy said:
dsjr70 said:
lets face it, the large cruiser market is dead.
How many large cruisers do you own?
What bikes brought Victory sales back up?Great big ol' baggers, that's what. If the large cruiser market is dead then Victory is wasting their effort with those silly CrossDressers and Visions. Harley is spinning their wheels with the new models carrying 103" and 110" powerplants. If Yamaha doesn't stop with the 113" bagger bikes it will be their undoing, I tell ya.

What are the hot sellers now in the motorcycle marketplace? Baggers. In case no one noticed, baggers killed the chopper craze dead as a doornail. Modern bikers aspire to own a kickass bagger. There are bagger magazines popping up on news stands. Big Dog's flagship model, the Bulldog, is a baggernow. Everybody makes a bagger version of their top bike... even Triumph has a bagger version of the Rocket 3.
THE market is baggers. Victory busted the bagger market WIDE F'IN OPEN last year. It was a smart move and it paid off. So far, Victory is really doing well in that big bagger market. The reviews are favorable. Acceptance is growing exponentially. It seems they found something they do well.
They couldnt even break the 10,000 unit mark and that is a success? It is widely know in the industry that the large cruisers took the biggest hit in the economy. Just Google it.
So the shakeout of all this is that cruiser sales are on fire...but only on models under 1200cc
Motorcycle Magazine.
 
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