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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Indian has gained a 25% market share-- a record for Polaris-- despite "unprecedented marketing by the competitor "
Sales are solid and Scouts are up internationally 13%.
Lots of high expectations for the new FTR based on trends.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/42...wine-q3-2018-results-earnings-call-transcript

When Victory was in business, we were all following these reports....

It is good (since I now own and Indian) to see Indian doing well. The aftermarket is super strong and amazingly, to us long-time Victory owners, customer service is really good. I have heard amazing stories of Polaris taking care of their Indian customers.

Anyway---
Lookin' good :)
 

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I still believe the indian is what the victory should/could have been with the right marketing....
 

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Well they use many same components .... ABS systems, brake pads & calipers, swing arms maybe ?, tripple trees looks the same, all electrical connectors, fuel connectors, etc etc ....
 

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Well, I sure don't see these great sales numbers out here in the real world. If Scott Swine says it's a nice day outside, I will go look out the window, thank you very much. Not one 2019 Polaris-indian have I seen out here yet. All kinds of new Harley's out on the street though. Take that for what it's worth.

Either way I could care less.
 

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Polaris "heavy" (baggers & touring) sales are a drag. It comes 3 or 4 times reading the whole thing. Wine says they won't abandon that segment, but business being business I would expect they won't be doing much to advance that. Why would you? Sales of them are disappointing. The market is declining. I predict you'll see midsize become the priority and a token lineup of baggers and cruisers. Their is no "miracle" to be had here.
 

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Lone Rider of the Apocolypse
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Polaris "heavy" (baggers & touring) sales are a drag. It comes 3 or 4 times reading the whole thing. Wine says they won't abandon that segment, but business being business I would expect they won't be doing much to advance that. Why would you? Sales of them are disappointing.
There will be no Roadmaster 2.0 or any other new touring machine offered, that is pretty obvious to me now. Look at the Chieftain; that is not a "new" bike for 2019, it just got a superficial Harley makeover. They will just run with the stuff that they have (sans the usual new paint and wheels shell game that Swine likes to play) until the sales dry up completely. Then they will be cut the heavies from production. But then, how do you upgrade a relic? There is no other path for these bikes. That is what happens when you are stupid enough to lock yourself into a certain niche that has no clear future.

The market is declining. I predict you'll see midsize become the priority and a token lineup of baggers and cruisers. Their is no "miracle" to be had here.
This seems to be the consensus among us armchair quarterbacks!
 

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I get the idea of resurrecting the Indian name. Great idea on paper. Now, what do you do with it. I'm not saying Indian will die. I am of the belief Harley has pretty much all the vroom vroom nostalgia market. Asians will own their share via cheaper and more reliability. Indian will be...something kind if new, I guess?
 

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Indian has gained a 25% market share-- a record for Polaris-- despite "unprecedented marketing by the competitor "
Sales are solid and Scouts are up internationally 13%.
Lots of high expectations for the new FTR based on trends.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/42...wine-q3-2018-results-earnings-call-transcript

When Victory was in business, we were all following these reports....

It is good (since I now own and Indian) to see Indian doing well. The aftermarket is super strong and amazingly, to us long-time Victory owners, customer service is really good. I have heard amazing stories of Polaris taking care of their Indian customers.

Anyway---
Lookin' good :)
Thank Trump. A lot of fair weather fanboys now have an excuse to dump HD.
 

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There will be no Roadmaster 2.0 or any other touring machine offered, that is pretty obvious to me now. Look at the Chieftain; that is not a "new" bike for 2019, it just got a superficial Harley makeover. They will just run with the stuff that they have (sans the usual new paint and wheels shell game that Swine likes to play) until the sales dry up completely. Then they will be cut the heavies from production. But then, how do you upgrade a relic? There is no other path for these bikes. That is what happens when you are stupid enough to lock yourself into a certain niche that has no clear future.

This seems to be the consensus among us armchair quarterbacks!
Business class and first class seats make up a small fraction of airline seats but the bulk of their profit. In a similar vein, large displacement bikes for Indian (and HD) have huge profit margins and keep the company going. That won't change for a while.
 

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I see what you are saying but the mechanics are very different

1st class & business are largely purchased by companies who can write off the expense

The other extensive use is as upgrades for frequent flyers. To lure them from competition, to get them to fly with that airline more often.

They are also used as a points program lure.

When Indian starts offering a points based or cheap upgrade to a much more expensive bike for a repeat Indian customer, then I'll agree its the same model:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Oh-my-word!
Some of you guys take the cake!
Numbers don't lie. ALL sources say that despite the industry being down, Indian sales are holding steady and increasing their share.

Victory NEVER had a "2.0" anything!
Look at the Indian line-up in just FOUR YEARS!
They have had MAJOR upgrades every year since 2015.
The Scout.
The infotainment system...
The new infotainment system
The new chieftain
New hand-applied custom paint
The new FTR
New Scout bobbers
Scout 60

How many times did Victory update ANY bike?
Zero.

Look at the Indian dealers-- mine makes the Harley dealer look shabby.

Wake up and smell the coffee, haha!

I know some fellows are pretty hurt still, but these are good bikes, and things are looking pretty exciting for the brand.

Take a look at Harley' s mess! The new $21,000 single seater that the $13,000 new Indian will smoke.
238,000 recalls....sales down double digits...

Smile! Indian s doing good! ;)
 

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Lone Rider of the Apocolypse
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I just know what I see. In terms of new, I see Harleys, not indians. There are indians out here, though. There is a guy that works where I do that rides a blacked-out '15 Roadmaster. Nice bike. It's most likely different in different parts of the country.

I'm still waiting to see what the FTR does. Chances are it could take off. And I hear they are still moving Scouts. Honestly, I am not sure why I don't see more of them.
 

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Well, I sure don't see these great sales numbers out here in the real world. If Scott Swine says it's a nice day outside, I will go look out the window, thank you very much. Not one 2019 Polaris-indian have I seen out here yet. All kinds of new Harley's out on the street though. Take that for what it's worth.

Either way I could care less.
Maybe they're being sold to the same crowd that likes to keep a garage queen Harley. Now they have a garage queen Indian.
 

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We all know the Vics would have done much better too if Polaris had put in the effort and $$$ Notaharley has listed that's gone into the Indian.
 

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No victory updates? Not entirely true. For Cross bikes, there was the Crossroads and Cross Country. Then there was the Magnum, and the X1. I would consider them more as upgrades as opposed to whole new bikes, considering the majority of the parts are the same.
 

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There are (2) Indian dealers in my general area that I deal/have dealt with. One is about 40 minutes away from me and the other about 90 minutes (this is where I bought my 2014 Chieftain).
I speak to the owners often when I go to these dealerships and I speak to the sales manager at the one dealership almost every time I go. Indian sales are very brisk at both of these dealerships.
I live in a VERY Harley saturated area. The first two years that I had my Chieftain I never saw Indians on the road (unless I got together with some of the Indian guys within about two hours of me to ride). Last year that started to change. I would see an Indian now and then... still a novelty. Now I see Indians every time I'm out riding. It's only been four years and the growth seems to be good.
I'm a fan of the Indians and love my Chieftain BUT I think Indian needs to come out with a bagger/tourer that is NOT based on the 111 platform. It's time and what better year than year 5?
 

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Oh-my-word!
Some of you guys take the cake!
Numbers don't lie. ALL sources say that despite the industry being down, Indian sales are holding steady and increasing their share.

Victory NEVER had a "2.0" anything!
Look at the Indian line-up in just FOUR YEARS!
They have had MAJOR upgrades every year since 2015.
The Scout.
The infotainment system...
The new infotainment system
The new chieftain
New hand-applied custom paint
The new FTR
New Scout bobbers
Scout 60

How many times did Victory update ANY bike?
Zero.

Look at the Indian dealers-- mine makes the Harley dealer look shabby.

Wake up and smell the coffee, haha!

I know some fellows are pretty hurt still, but these are good bikes, and things are looking pretty exciting for the brand.

Take a look at Harley' s mess! The new $21,000 single seater that the $13,000 new Indian will smoke.
238,000 recalls....sales down double digits...

Smile! Indian s doing good! ;)
Umm, how about when Victory went from the Hammer based engine to the Freedom? From the V92 bikes to the Vegas steel frames? From the steel frames to the cast aluminum Cross and Vision bikes? From 100" to 106" and from 5 to 6 speed models? I'm not saying Vic did a great job of updating their lineup, but most of the failures were at the end after Wine decided to kill the brand. Please don't forget that the 'big' seller for Indian was originally designed and paid for to be a Victory.. the Scout.
 

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Umm, how about when Victory went from the Hammer based engine to the Freedom? From the V92 bikes to the Vegas steel frames? From the steel frames to the cast aluminum Cross and Vision bikes? From 100" to 106" and from 5 to 6 speed models? I'm not saying Vic did a great job of updating their lineup, but most of the failures were at the end after Wine decided to kill the brand. Please don't forget that the 'big' seller for Indian was originally designed and paid for to be a Victory.. the Scout.
Let's see what I can do from memory:
1999 Victory V92C
2000 Sport Cruiser
2001 Touring Cruiser
2002 Freedom Engine introduced, 92" 5speed.
2003 Victory Vegas
2004 Victory Kingpin
2005 Victory Hammer and 100" 6 speed.
2006 Victory Jackpot, it plus the Vegas and Kingpin get the 100/6 too.
2007 Victory Kingpin Tour.
2008 Victory Vision and the Freedom 106/6 introduced.
2009....recession.
2010 Victory Cross Country and Cross Roads.
2011 Cross Country Tour, Highball, all new transmission.
2012 Victory Judge
2013 Victory Boardwalk
2014 Victory Magnum and Gunner
2015 Magnum X-1 and Empulse TT
2016 Victory Octane

Yes, towards the end Wine and Co. we're clearly "mailing it in" as the newly created competition for Victory that got all the tech Victory created but didn't get resulted in sales flattening out. The updates and upgrades the last few years were pretty minor compared to the brand's history. Obviously Notaharley is on some serious dope to claim Victory never had an update on anything though. The similarities are pretty clear. The last few years of Victory all the brand got was different paint, wheels, or new body tins on an existing model. And...Wine and Co. claimed everything was going great and they had a bunch of big plans for the brand. They even hyped the crap out of a soon to be released new model that only had one season to sell by the time they actually shipped the dang thing. Ring a bell yet???

It is true numbers don't lie. Harley's bagger sales are up, Indian's sales are flat. Both brands are claiming to be bringing new middle weight standards to market next year, Indian has one, Harley has three. Harley has weathered storms multiple times in its past, Polaris did the cut and run multiple times in its past everytime sales aren't looking good. Motorcycle sales are not looking good, they are down. There's a saying about fooling me twice, I can't remember it because my version is "Fool me once and go f*ck yourself forever". You will never catch me drinking Polaris Kool-aid again.
 
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