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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm currently shopping for a XC and I'm seeing some charges that I think shouldn't be in this economy. Freight $525, DOC $170 and I've heard of dealers charging prep as well. Do you think these are legitimate charges, just added fluff, and what's the norm?
 

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Thats a lot of fluff!
 

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It would depend on what the base cost of the bike is. The last dealer I spoke to about it said he would be happy to get MSRP with all the bs charges.
 

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looks like a lot of fluff for me as well but I guess it depends on the region on the country. My dealership never charged me any of that stuff but I guess depending on what they're charging for the bike maybe it's their way of adding in a profit.
 

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I don't know how the MSRP is determined- dealer cost plus a reasonable markup? I'd be real curious what their invoice reads.
 

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MSRP does not include freight but unlike Harley, Victory doesn't post a fixed price so I suspect it's different from dealer to dealer. Regardless, I don't see it being less than $500 and it's a fee the dealership will have to eat if they don't pass it along so no, it's not fluff.

As for Doc fees, that will depend on your state. For instance, Florida charges $77.25 to process a title plus as much as another $72 for first year registration depending on whether you are transferring a tag or getting a new one so the $170 doc fees could be a pass through as well.

Most dealers also charge for their time to PDI the bike. This is a charge I have heartburn with, it should be included in the cost of goods sold and not broken out as a separate line item IMHO.

Now the bottom line is are you going to pay these fees one way or another. Either you are going to negotiate a low sale price then add the fees or the dealer is going to "discount" the deal by absorbing the fees. The bottom line is what you pay out the door so it's pretty much up to you how the paper is written up.

Considering the popularity of the bike along with the economy and knowing the dealer needs to make money on the deal or he/she ain't gonna be around long I figure MSRP + tax out the door (no additional fees) with 10% or 20% off accessories purchased at the time of sale and redemption of any Victory coupons (anywhere from $250 to $1000 depending on the promotion) is a fair deal for all parties.
 

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Dimonback said:
I don't know how the MSRP is determined- dealer cost plus a reasonable markup? I'd be real curious what their invoice reads.
MSRP is determined by the manufacturer, hence Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price. Dealers typically work on an invoice price that's a fixed percentage off MSRP plus some additional incentives like holdbacks, advertising cooperatives and factory to dealer incentives. I believe the margin on the Cross bikes is pretty thin, somewhere in the neighborhood of 10% - 12% but I'm not 100% sure.
 

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mjw930 said:
MSRP is determined by the manufacturer, hence Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price. Dealers typically work on an invoice price that's a fixed percentage off MSRP plus some additional incentives like holdbacks, advertising cooperatives and factory to dealer incentives. I believe the margin on the Cross bikes is pretty thin, somewhere in the neighborhood of 10% - 12% but I'm not 100% sure.
I was thinking 10-16%, but didn't want to puke that out there. So generally speaking, the MSRP might cover a large portion of the overhead, but leaves nothing for profit. In that case I can see charging for freight, buildup, a documentation.
Like many other types of operations, it's the aftermarket bling that draws the real money.
 

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Do what I did when I bought my bike
E-mail every dealer and aske them foran out the door price for everything.then go to your dealer and say I want to pay this and if they say no buy it form the other dealer.
I have seen XC on cycle trader for 16,999.00 (black)not sure how much extras they add to that but a good starting point.
 

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Which "Doc" did they bring this in to? Lets see i think Chicago is a port, and Milwaukee is a port, I think there are a couple in Michigan also. Where did they load the bikes, and what boat did they come in on? Is there a Port in Spirit lake? Wait its Spirit "Lake" so they must have a port, right ?
 

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Purchased 4 Vics never paid that BS stuff. Go to another dealer
 

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bubba said:
Purchased 4 Vics never paid that BS stuff. Go to another dealer
Yes you did, you just didn't see it broken out as a separate line item.

BTW Doc fees are not always BS. Look at my reply and you'll see that in FL you'll be spending at least $140 at the local tag office (Doc's as in Documentation) before they collect the sales tax. Why would you expect the dealer to eat YOUR state registration fees?
 

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He said Freight and Doc fees. I did not pay freight and my "doc" fees are a separate line called registration. Don't know that the Doc fees he was referring too was Registration. Or was he??
 

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I think he may mean destination fees. They are charges from the factory to package the bike and ship it. It is often separate from the freight invoice.

Honda and Harley will add on about another $1,000 bucks in this type of stuff if you let them. As above, make an offer on the bike and make it final.

Start to walk out. If it was fair they won't let you walk. These fees are not state or local charges and are not a required part of a sale like registration and title work.

On another note, if they try to split the difference or not go to your offer, don't be afraid to keep walking. Leave them with your phone number.

Professional vehicle sales representatives do it all day every day. You are outgunned if you stay there with them. They have an answer and excuse ready and waiting for every objection. The only objection they have no answer for is your ability to walk away. They hate that one! If you are in their happy spot but they just wanted a little more most of the time you won't get out of the parking lot. You will get " You have me losing money on this thing but if you buy it today, lets do it".

Happy shopping
 

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My theory is I don't care what is in the tuna, just final result. I personnally would not worry about any fees just deal on the out the door price. Nothing else matters except what you pay when you leave.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
dsjr70 said:
My theory is I don't care what is in the tuna, just final result. I personnally would not worry about any fees just deal on the out the door price. Nothing else matters except what you pay when you leave.
That's where I'm going to go with this, they can put the numbers wherever it suits them best.

DOC fees are something the car dealers started around here to do the paperwork for the sale, it's not plate and registration as that's on another line. Now they want us to pay them MSRP and pay a fee on top of that to do the paperwork, it's just another way to up the profit by having us cover their overhead.
 

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bikendad said:
dsjr70 said:
My theory is I don't care what is in the tuna, just final result. I personnally would not worry about any fees just deal on the out the door price. Nothing else matters except what you pay when you leave.
That's where I'm going to go with this, they can put the numbers wherever it suits them best.

DOC fees are something the car dealers started around here to do the paperwork for the sale, it's not plate and registration as that's on another line. Now they want us to pay them MSRP and pay a fee on top of that to do the paperwork, it's just another way to up the profit by having us cover their overhead.
Out The Door pricing is a great way to go...if you can get the Dealer to cooperate.

As I learned a long time ago, you will never insult anyone with a legitimate, written offer. Whether you're buying a house or a motorcycle, if you can commit the price and the terms of the offer (how you'll be paying for it) to paper, you will most likely have a better chance to get the seller to accept your offer as they will know upfront that:

1) You are taking this purchase seriously and have performed your homework;

2) You respect their time, and

3) Opposed to a conversation negotiation where things can become misinterpreted, the written offer can clearly state the price you will be paying should the Dealer accept your offer.

Yes, once you make the offer, it's the Dealer's to lose. They can accept the offer, gamble that you're bluffing and make a counter-offer or just toss it in the trash can.

We have to remember, that it is still a Buyer's Market for most recreational products.

With that said, just how to you calculate a fair offer on an Out The Door price?Hopefully, others will chime-in with a formula for this.

One idea is to look at the area where you live. If there's snow on the ground and the long range weather forecast states more cold weather is coming, and if your Dealer has inventory, possibly they will be more motivated to work on a tighter margin. But allow me to add that Dealer's are not public service companies and like any business, they are entitled to a profit. The market conditions are simply a barometer that could assist to indicate just how much profit is a "fair" profit.

My initial thought is to offer the MSRP as the Out The Door price. Let's "assume" for a moment that the Dealer is working on a 12% margin on the bike and a 40% - 50% margin on the accessories. If your sales tax is (for example) 6% and you offer them MSRP, there will still be some margin available to offset the smaller add-on items that some Dealer's (car and motorcycle) have been starting to add over the years.

If you want to buy accessories for the bike at the time of the bike purchase, I'd recommend factoring that into the written offer as well as that will allow the Dealer to see the "bigger picture" in the net profit of the entire transaction. I've been told in the past that a rule of thumb for accessories that are made at the time of the bike purchase is 10 - 20% off MSRP plus free installation.

The unknown of this equation is how many of the specific model Victory will produce as that's a delicate balance and not that easy of a formula to predict to have the proper balance of models for any given model year. If they produce more inventory than the market can absorb, they will be stuck with stagnant inventory and will have to provide additional incentives to get them out the door. If they produce too few, they will create a strong demand and a sense of urgency, but could leave many profit dollars on the table if the factory is too conservative in its forecasts.

Just my two cents.
 

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bikendad said:
dsjr70 said:
My theory is I don't care what is in the tuna, just final result. I personnally would not worry about any fees just deal on the out the door price. Nothing else matters except what you pay when you leave.
That's where I'm going to go with this, they can put the numbers wherever it suits them best.

DOC fees are something the car dealers started around here to do the paperwork for the sale, it's not plate and registration as that's on another line. Now they want us to pay them MSRP and pay a fee on top of that to do the paperwork, it's just another way to up the profit by having us cover their overhead.
If the Doc fees are for them to prepare the documents then screw them, that's part of the cost of doing business.

I've had interesting conversations with car dealers. I had one who was so insistent that they MUST charge a $699 "dealer fee" that they took $699 off the sales price so the final price was what we agreed on. I know exactly why they do that, it's to screw the salesman out of commission. The salesman gets paid on a percentage of the sales price of the vehicle. Dealer fees are not part of their commission, it goes straight into the dealerships pocket.

Figure out what you want to spend, down to the penny and hand them that offer. All they can do is say no. I honestly don't think you will get MSRP out the door but MSRP + tax is probably doable, at least until they start having to pay floorplan on the bikes. Make sure you let them know you want accessories too. Like Andy said, that's a cash cow for them compared to the bike sale so they will be far more likely to work out a package price that fits your budget.
 
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