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88 Posts
Did any Victory have what the Challenger has? Nope. It is a different animal. If you don't like it, don't buy one. But that doesn't make it an XCT. Not even close.
More BS from Polaris
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27,479 Posts
The Challenger was originally designed to be a Victory. It was the next Gen that we were told about. Even the concept art from that time looked like it. Polaris killed Victory and simply slapped an Indian badge on it instead. Just like they did with the Octane/Scout.
Tell me that fairing and headlight does not look like the Challenger. Then look at the motor.
Case of the Missing XC Concept Images
Anyone have the concept images of the Cross Country replacement that surfaced a few years ago? From memory there was four versions. I am interested to see what bits may have become reality in the Challenger. For the life of me I can't find them here or on the wider web. Then again, maybe my...
www.thevog.net
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1,936 Posts
That looks like useful sized saddlebags not the small Indian bags.The Challenger was originally designed to be a Victory. It was the next Gen that we were told about. Even the concept art from that time looked like it. Polaris killed Victory and simply slapped an Indian badge on it instead. Just like they did with the Octane/Scout.
Tell me that fairing and headlight does not look like the Challenger. Then look at the motor.
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Case of the Missing XC Concept Images
Anyone have the concept images of the Cross Country replacement that surfaced a few years ago? From memory there was four versions. I am interested to see what bits may have become reality in the Challenger. For the life of me I can't find them here or on the wider web. Then again, maybe my...
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27,479 Posts
They had to make them smaller when they decided to call it an Indian since they were going after the HD crowd and that's what they were are used to. LOL!!!
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7,131 Posts
But but but, the history. Indian goes all the way back to 1901.
The only actual lineage the Challenger/Pursuit lines can trace back to is the Victory CC/CCT R&D folder of bikes that were never able to come out as what they were originally designed as.
Same with the original Polaris Indian Scout. 100% a rebadged and slightly redesigned Victory Octane.
Oh well, it’s all history now. But this is the actual history as opposed to the BS Marketing from Polaris.
The only actual lineage the Challenger/Pursuit lines can trace back to is the Victory CC/CCT R&D folder of bikes that were never able to come out as what they were originally designed as.
Same with the original Polaris Indian Scout. 100% a rebadged and slightly redesigned Victory Octane.
Oh well, it’s all history now. But this is the actual history as opposed to the BS Marketing from Polaris.
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7,131 Posts
There you go. Now change the Victory aesthetics to mimic H-D and call it an Indian Challenger. Or, in today's vernacular, a Trans Indian.The Challenger was originally designed to be a Victory. It was the next Gen that we were told about. Even the concept art from that time looked like it. Polaris killed Victory and simply slapped an Indian badge on it instead. Just like they did with the Octane/Scout.
Tell me that fairing and headlight does not look like the Challenger. Then look at the motor.
View attachment 640157
View attachment 640158
View attachment 640159
Case of the Missing XC Concept Images
Anyone have the concept images of the Cross Country replacement that surfaced a few years ago? From memory there was four versions. I am interested to see what bits may have become reality in the Challenger. For the life of me I can't find them here or on the wider web. Then again, maybe my...
Like I said a bit earlier, at this point the Victory design folder must be getting quite thin. Soon, Polaris will have no choice but to come up with something that's actually new, original and unique for the Indian line. And I don't mean just change colors from year to year and call it 'new'.
That or they'll just close down their Indian line if the economy drifts sideways too far.
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10,014 Posts
Front wheel on all three concepts same as my 2012 CCT. Don't think that was an accident. And that V tail light?? That ain't no Indian.
And, Yes. They are very different bikes because the "Indian" is an improved and updated version of the Victory. So it is different, but it was always originally (pay close attention to that word) intended to be a Victory. Killing off the line and putting a new name on an already existing concept bike doesn't alter the original intent. Ever play 3 card monte? Polaris does.
And, Yes. They are very different bikes because the "Indian" is an improved and updated version of the Victory. So it is different, but it was always originally (pay close attention to that word) intended to be a Victory. Killing off the line and putting a new name on an already existing concept bike doesn't alter the original intent. Ever play 3 card monte? Polaris does.
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7,131 Posts
I see you’re still posting facts, logic and common sense. Good on ya @MagVic CCT!
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167 Posts
Looks like a Challenger to me.
.I wonder how well that designed as shown would have sold under the Victory nameplate? I definitely would have bought it....but here we are. Time is running out for me.
Good luck PI.
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10,014 Posts
Well, when I'm pushed into a corner.
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88 Posts
Regardless of what banner the Challenger was designed under, It is overwhelmingly new. It was never sold under any other name.
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1,462 Posts
I recall when the Boardwalk came out and ended up replacing my beloved Kingpin, I replied to a post that I thought the Boardwalk looked quite similar to the Pin. I was quickly shutdown on that one (but never took it personally with this group).
IMHO sometimes it's better to leave things be and just go for a ride
. Have a great weekend all!
IMHO sometimes it's better to leave things be and just go for a ride
. Have a great weekend all!
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7,131 Posts
Polaris essentially made steel frame families and cast frame famines separated by engine size. All the 106/6 steel frame bikes are basically the same except for tins, seats, bars and forks. IMHO, the KP and the Boardwalk are quite different.
Same with the 106/6 cast frame bike except the Vision. The Vision and the Octane were unique platforms. But the rest of the 106/6 platforms were all the same whether it be a CR, CC, CCT, H-B or Magnum. A simple change of wheels, accessories, handlebars, lowers, trunk etc. and of course paint.
Same with the 106/6 cast frame bike except the Vision. The Vision and the Octane were unique platforms. But the rest of the 106/6 platforms were all the same whether it be a CR, CC, CCT, H-B or Magnum. A simple change of wheels, accessories, handlebars, lowers, trunk etc. and of course paint.
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10,014 Posts
New, yes. Original, no. Was on the drawing board as Victory, brought out as Indian. Not original. More incestual. And the problem anyone here might be having is not with the bike. The problem is with the hypocrites at Polaris. Again, three card monte. Look over here while I switch things over here.
It's an interesting situation to observe. Create a base and then alienate that same base. But, Polaris was never after us. Polaris was after the Harley riders. The, let's not think about it too long, just buy it because it's cool, or it sounds right or (and this is the worst of all) e-v-e-r-y-o-n-e else is doing it crowd. Ride one and you'll own one implies time, research and thought put into a bike purchase. Great slogan, but not as effective with that crowd as the Indian slogan......It's got heritage. No research required.
It's an interesting situation to observe. Create a base and then alienate that same base. But, Polaris was never after us. Polaris was after the Harley riders. The, let's not think about it too long, just buy it because it's cool, or it sounds right or (and this is the worst of all) e-v-e-r-y-o-n-e else is doing it crowd. Ride one and you'll own one implies time, research and thought put into a bike purchase. Great slogan, but not as effective with that crowd as the Indian slogan......It's got heritage. No research required.
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1,809 Posts
The Thunderstroke engine was new and unique.
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1,809 Posts
Even if Polaris continued to make Victory, supposedly they were going to have to ditch the Freedom Engine because of EPA sh*t. I way prefer the Freedom engine to the PowerPlus engine. And it's doubtful I would've bought one.
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7,131 Posts
According to Polaris’ own Marketing at the time, they “borrowed heavily” from decades old Indian design cues. On the Thunderstroke engine as well as the aesthetics of the rest of the motorcycle.
Exactly what attribute of the Thunderstroke is actually ‘new’, ‘original’ and/or ‘unique’? Meaning never been used anywhere else before.
In striking contrast, nearly every design cue of the Victory line was ‘new’, ‘original’ and ‘unique’ because the entire line up was ‘new’, ‘original’ and ‘unique’.
My point being with the vast originality Polaris showed with Victory, they’ve simply had nothing original to offer their Indian line. The Indians are most certainly excellent motorcycles. I’m just disappointed in Polaris R&D for not offering up anything new.
At the same time, I suspect Polaris Indian has sold more units already than they did Victory’s in total.
I have no idea what Polaris paid for the rights to the Indian Motorcycle name and imaging. But I sincerely hope it’s been profitable for them.
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7,131 Posts
Polaris developed the Challenger motor and platform specifically to replace the 106” and their Victory Cross line. Apparently Polaris had nothing new for their Indian line so they simply used their new Victory platform.
I think the Challenger motor would be great fun in my CCT or my Hard-Ball.
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10,014 Posts
As I read what you have to say and consider it, I'm struck by a thought regarding originality and the Indian line. I don't believe that Polaris intended to do anything original with the Indian. In fact, I am recalling a vague thought I had at the time that the Thunderstroke engine was announced. That was, why would they put so much engineering and effort into designing an old and not so efficient engine design? Considering what it is, they didn't do a bad job of producing an engine with good torque, but it seemed like a step backwards considering what had been achieved with Victory.
But, on consideration Polaris put themselves into exactly the same type of trap that Harley was in for quite a time. Modernization of engines was not going to sell to "the faithful". For whatever reason that I may never understand, there are more riders out there (excluding the rocket crew) who want antiquated motor design over optimal design. See V rod. So, Polaris started from the premise that they needed the old OH valve, push rod motor to sell to the "faithful". Now, that sales are up(?) I guess it's time to ease in the (repurposed Victory) upgrades. Maybe it will work?
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88 Posts
Upon proceeding with the marketing strategy of dropping Victory in favor of going with Indian exclusively, Polaris should have been required to drop any technologies they had in development, whether they had been used or not.
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