Making adjustments in a Maximus tune | Victory Motorcycles: Motorcycle Forums

Making adjustments in a Maximus tune

Discussion in 'Victory General Discussion' started by wickman, Apr 22, 2019.

  1. wickman

    wickman Active Member

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    Anyone know the ins and outs for making proper changes on a Maximus tuned map after doing a dyno or road logging run? Trying to wrap my head around what tools are used for cleaning up a map , looking at my fuel tables 3d view and spark tables in 3d what tools would be used for bringing down the spikes and what causes the spikes? Would I get spikes everytime I take the bike out for road tuning or does it eventually stay consistant flow? Techno research software really doesn't lend much help for working on the maps in the software and I work 12 hour shifts which they work 9-5 m-f , not good.
     
  2. Duck156

    Duck156 New Member

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    OK, sorry this is a bit long.

    I have been messing around / tuning with my Maximus for almost a year now and hopefully I can give you a head start and then others can chime in.

    If you haven't and I'm sure you have, make sure that your bike is ok. Good Plugs, no vacuum leaks (I had a ton), no exhaust leaks etc. Other wise your going to get very frustrated how the tuning process goes.

    Over all there are very few table that you can adjust in a Maxiums tuner for Victory:
    Rev Limiter (set it and forget it)
    AFR range
    Front Cylinder Timing
    Rear Cylinder Timing
    Front VE Table
    Rear VE Table

    The timing tables are for the most part set and forget. Changes theses is like adding a timing wheel. A word of caution here, the front and rear timing tables are not the same. So don't just change the front and cut and past to the rear.

    The AFR table is for the most part also set and forget once you decide what AFR you want to run. The more you data log and paying attention to how the bike feels, you will come to understand when it wants a richer condition and when it does not. I have found that an AFR change from 13.8 to 13.5 was to much under light throttle acceleration.

    Be careful putting to much stock in the 3D maps views. I have found the scaling on the RPM in the VE tables is wrong when view the 3D maps. If you pick just generic location in the front cylinder VE table say 40 kpa at 2500 rpm and make it say 80 you will get a big spike at a location that does not line up at 2500 RPM. So trying it use the 3D maps as a reference can be difficult and frustrating.

    Now lets talk about data logging. I can speak from personal experience when you go out to data log you need to make a run. What I mean is go for a 30-40 mile run. Do not go around the block. The amount of data points will not be enough to make good adjustment. You need to get a lot of data points to in order for the software not not make crap suggestions. I will go out for a 40 mile run in stop and go and high speed highway varying as I go. Its not uncommon to see over 200 samples in some data location.

    OK you have done all that now what. You make sure you have your current tune open in and have uploaded the data you just logged and you should see this, (See file A). a.jpg Now what you will do is select create Map, a new window will open called fuel table. Here you can select to only adjust one cylinder or not adjust idle. We can discuss that later, selecting ok will open sampling from all the data in the log file. This data is very useful in understand where the fuel maps are rich / lean and more importantly where you did not get enough information to make a valid tuning adjustment (See File B). b.jpg
    Each cell has the four following pieces of information in it.

    Number of sample : Target AFR
    ------------------------------------------
    Front AFR : Rear AFR

    As I stated early the number of samples is really important. As a general rule I ignore anything with less than 10 samples, its just not enough data to get a good recommendation from the software.

    OK select exit and your rear VE fuel table should be open. It will have all the cells high lighted that it wants to make a change to (See File c)
    c.jpg

    No there is a super easy way to see how much the software wants to change every cell. Click on Delta off this will show in % the amount that each cell wants to change, (See File d)
    d.jpg

    Based on this information you can then decide what I want to keep. In this example I would throw out [email protected] that is just to much change. You can also select delta on and toggle back and forth. If I want to not accept a give value such as [email protected] I would leave delta on and change the 6.02 to 0.0.

    A note that column 20 is all deceleration, i.e. 0 throttle so I always wright 0.0 to those locations.

    Once you ave gone though and are happy with the overall changes select apply and close. Now you should see the front cylinder VE table and you go through the same thing again. Select apply and close when you are happy with the numbers.

    OK READ THIS PART!!!!. Once you have accepted all the changes you MUST SAVE the file as a new name. If you leave it as the same name it will go thought the motion of download and do nothing!!!!

    Ok what you really asked about map smoothing. If you select the upper left corner of the VE map it will highlight the entire map. In the math drop down you can select a few options.
    e.jpg
    I have found this ok, I would not recommend over doing this as it will raise low spots and reduce high spots which in turn will change all the tuning you have done.


    So there is it. Hopefully someone finds the helpful. Its is a great tuner, I have no decel poping and pulls great. I'm now just working on the dreaded 2500 rpm vibration during light acceleration, which seems to be right where I switch AFR.

    Glen
     
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  3. wickman

    wickman Active Member

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    Thanks Glen , I don’t believe topics such as this could ever be done in a short form, you did a fantastic job of introducing how you have been doing your Maximus tuning.

    Did you start with a Techno Research canned file? What year is your bike?

    To tell you the truth I wasn’t expecting a breakdown like you presented and it’s a bit overwhelming and will take me a bit to break it down and take it all in.

    Would it be possible for you to post pics of a before and after in a 3D format for fuel and spark, just something I could relate to and put it behind me.

    Glen have you gained a good understanding of what a good tuned map would look like as well as an understanding of how the ECU when you flash with the next road sampling’s smoothed out would be handled by the stock narrow band 02’s ? I’m just wondering when enough tuning is done and how the bike would run with a tune that’s not quite there yet?
    That last question may not even fit in if you continue to use the Wideband 02s and not the Narrow bands.
     
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  4. Duck156

    Duck156 New Member

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    I'll try and answer all your question that I can.

    I ride a 2012 XCT with all the normal stuff that everyone does.
    Stage 1 exhaust
    LLyozd Air filter
    1/4 Turn throttle ring
    +4 degrees timing. I had a timing wheel but I have removed as this is now done by the tuner.

    I did start with the stage 1 file for my bike.

    Here is Stage 1 Stock front cylinder fuel map:
    Stage 1 Front CYL.jpg

    Here is my current front cylinder fuel map:
    Current Front CYL.jpg

    You maybe surprised how much more jagged my fuel map is. There are a few reason for this, one is I can't leave well enough alone......lol The biggest reason is there are places on the the fuel map that you can not get to. You just can not get to 110 kpa at 310 rpm, so those cells never get adjusted making the higher numbers look vastly different. Think of it this way, say you had three numbers 5-90-5 and you never used the cells with 5 in it and only 90. In a graph it would look way out of proportion. You could technically change the 5 to 85 since you never use them and then the graph would look flatter.

    So what I'm using to decide when I'm done, well that's a really good questions. So I guess I'll start with what was I trying to accomplish to begin with. The two biggest issues I had was the shift / decel pop and the getting cooked in stop and go traffic. Those two items are diffidently solved for me. I'm now down to really paying attention to what the data log tells me and how that bike feels. I look at the tracer and look for anomalies between target AFR and differences between front and re-cylinders AFR. You will be surprised to find that in some instances the from cylinder AFR maybe 14.5 and the rear is 13.6 its happens early on in tuning.

    I'm to the point that when I log and it wants to adjust, its only trying to do + or - less than 2 in any give cell. This is good, its tells me i'm at target AFR. Now its all about how does it feel. Like I said earlier I know have a little buzz in the bars under light acceleration from about 2400 - 2700 rpm. I have been able to see that is where I currently dropping from 13.8 AFR to 13.5 AFR. Here is a screen shot of what I'm talking about.
    AFR.jpg
    The light blue line in the middle is the AFR set point the brown line is the front cylinder AFR, Red line RPM, Green line throttle. As I roll into the throttle the MAP increases and it switched to a richer AFR set point that's the drop in the light blue line. This is where my handlebar buzz happens. So again I know I keep stating it but it up to the ride what feels good. If it doesn't then what conditions are you in when that happens and the logging will tell you what to look for.

    I plan to go back to the stock O2's once I'm tuned. The system is not setup to run the wide band permanently. If you leave the tuner plugged in with the wide bands they stay on, the battery will not last long if you do that.

    I hope that all makes sense.
     
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  5. wickman

    wickman Active Member

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    Thanks Glen , I will have to try to take it in. Ow that you showed the 3D how does the 3D compare to the numbered table ie how do you locate the spikes and when you do locate them do you bring the numbers down so they are a kind of average to the adjacent cells ?
     
  6. Duck156

    Duck156 New Member

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    There are a few methods to do this as I stated earlier. Its a bit difficult but not impossible to find the spike.
    First let me show you what I mean about the 3D graph not aligning with the RPM scale. So as an example idle is typically 27 kpa @ 950 rpm. My current maps has 43.32 at that location.
    idle.jpg

    So I'm now going to put 80 at that location, I just click on it and type 80
    Idle 80.jpg

    Now we go back to the 3D map
    Spike.jpg
    See where the spike its above 1450 rpm, ahhh that's not 950. So putting in a crazy number is the only way I have come up with finding a general area on the 3D map.

    OK lets fix the 80 I put in "automatically", go back to the map and select the 80 number. The original number was 43.32. The row above 80 is 42.88 and the one below it is 43.56. on a linear scale those are close to 43ish, so select 80 and then select "interpolate vertical" from the drop down list.
    upload_2019-4-22_19-41-58.png

    And now we have changed or blended the cell between the above and below cells.

    upload_2019-4-22_19-43-37.png

    The 80 has now changed to 43.22 if you are OK with the new number select apply and close. You can do this function vertical or horizontal, you can also select more than one cell. I caution everyone to be very careful, use the delta off mode and see much you are changing, little changes are better than big ones.
     

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  7. wickman

    wickman Active Member

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    Well done Glen, I now see how you identify a spike , have you narrowed down what is causing a spike? I can see how an exhaust least could cause some issues. Seeing as you have been at this for a year , have you tried a simple cruise run to get sampling trying to keep shifting, decelerations and cruising steady and then uploading the data to view?
     
  8. waterhog

    waterhog Well-Known Member

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    Excellent posts on VE tuning with Maximus using Direct Link. Shows VE table calibration interface in Direct Link is fairly standard. Anyone with EFI tuning experience should feel at home. A plus for Maximus as far as DIY usability goes.
     
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  9. broggyr

    broggyr Administrator Staff Member

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    I believe he's putting in a very high number on purpose to see where it shows on the graph so he has a reference. That way he has an idea where the rest of the graph falls. How close am I? :)
     
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  10. Duck156

    Duck156 New Member

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    Yes, I have done a ton of data logging, this is how found that I was not getting enough data points to get an accurate suggested adjustments.

    There are several conditions that can cause a spike. A spike in a VE table or fuel map is nothing more than a give amount of fuel at that condition to meet a desired Air Fuel Ratio (AFR). A spike is not necessary a bad thing, it may actually be required at a given condition for the parts you have to meet that AFR.

    What I can not stress enough is if you allow any software make adjustment to your fuel maps you must review it and override the changes that are too extreme. If you don't, you will get spikes and holes in your fuel maps.

    So here is an example of what I'm talking about. In the highlighted cell we have 1 sample and a target AFR of 13.8. The front cylinder AFR was 13.3 and the rear is 11.4
    Rear.jpg

    So now I see what the software wants to do to that cell. It wants to pull -6.78 out of that cell for the rear fuel map. What??? That is way to much. I would over ride that with a 0.0
    Rear_low.jpg

    To further explain, the software wanted to do that because it was way rich condition 11.4 AFR on the rear cylinder. This wound not be a spike but a hole in your map. But what the software does not take in account is the fact I decelerating, earlier I stated that idle is a nominal 27 kpa, everything to the left of that you are decelerating.

    Another cause of spikes is you get a data point in your logging that is a single point by it self.
    single point.jpg

    This is an extreme example but the highlighted cell is what happens when you turn the bike off when logging is still active.
     
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  11. Duck156

    Duck156 New Member

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    Spot on broggyr, I just do that to get a reference point on the map since the RPM scale does no line up with the data.
     
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  12. K1ll3m@LL

    [email protected] Well-Known Member

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    upload_2019-4-23_9-23-5.jpeg
     
  13. wickman

    wickman Active Member

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    Glen using your example, “So here is an example of what I'm talking about. In the highlighted cell we have 1 sample and a target AFR of 13.8. The front cylinder AFR was 13.3 and the rear is 11.47 “ , and the software wanting to make an adjustment because of rich afr , with the wideband working between 1.5 ( 21 afr ) and .5 ( 7.1 afr ) well what or how does the stock ecu with narrow band 02’s deal with our modified maps ? Or would the narrow band 02’s input even allow the ecu functions to allow a rich or lean spike as I believe it would be running in closed loop and have a function to deal with the lean or rich conditions?Sorry if I’m not clear in my question.
    Edited to hopefully make more sense.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  14. Duck156

    Duck156 New Member

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    Great question. Narrow sensors are nothing more than a switch that are designed to operate around the 14.7 AFR. Now that being said there is nothing at says that they can operate operate a lower or higher than 14.7. I have heard different points that the Victory can go to the rich side and still be in close loop. I have heard 14.0 and 14.3, there are several guys out there that go even lower than that and run open loop all the time.
    Here is my current AFR map.
    AFR 2.jpg
    The area in grey is set to 14.1, I did not highlight that, the software did, indication that is my closed loop area.

    Here is another map that I set the idle area to 14.0, again it highlighted that area, indicating that area is in close loop.
    AFR 3.jpg

    Another thing I should point out when you are out data logging with widebands you are in open loop.

    Something I should have stated earlier, idle tuning should NOT be done in the driveway. Odd things will happen as the bike starts to get hot and there can be issues with not enough air flow over the O2 sensors to give good readings. If need to adjust idle AFR do it under normal riding conditions.

    A way to simplify the tune and to ignore idle and the decal areas uncheck the idle turning mode box when you create map. It will still grab that data from your log but will ignore it when it makes suggestions to the fuel tables.

    Fuel Table.jpg

    Hope this is helping.
     
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  15. waterhog

    waterhog Well-Known Member

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    I am not certain but my guess is that what Direct Link marks in grey as closed-loop is not being correctly interpreted. In their manual, on page 21, they state:

    "Note: When working on the ‘closed-loop’ models, changing the AFR value to 14.0 or below disables closed-loop operation which makes VE table tuning possible."

    I think this refers to probably a safe AFR threshold (14.0) below which most/all motorcycle ECUs can be expected to operate in open-loop mode. Which is required to set a target AFR (somewhere in the 13 range) for VE calibration purposes. I don't think their statement applies to actual operation of a motorcycle which will be ECU vendor/configuration specific.

    For example, for our 106 Victory Visteon ECUs, per huberei a target AFR in the range 14.3-14.7 will put it in closed-loop mode. Of course, subject to hardwired exceptions such as low temp during start-up, decel, etc. where a bike always operates in open-loop no matter what we input.
     
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