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H-D finally has a new, modern stock 107" engine and larger bores available with certain models. Indian is banking on selling... nostalgia. Nostalgia that goes back to 1953 and further seems a slim chance of attracting interested bikers in future. How long will the current engine design last until a modern Victory-type engine makes it into the frame?
 

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H-D finally has a new, modern stock 107" engine and larger bores available with certain models. Indian is banking on selling... nostalgia. Nostalgia that goes back to 1953 and further seems a slim chance of attracting interested bikers in future. How long will the current engine design last until a modern Victory-type engine makes it into the frame?
People who buy the Indian knock offs from Polaris, love the old style DNA and they have no problem with the performance. They are drawn to the, "Its not a Harley" movement. It stands out as something different, another choice and a cool choice at that. They run fine and are fast enough.

Since 2005 everywhere I went with my Triumph America (790 cc. Parallel Twin) lots of people gawking and liking it. Because it was different. It wasn't big, wasn't faster than the 1200 Sporster, but that didn't matter. My Kingpin did not get as much attention as the Triumph. The Kingpin however was much more powerful.

Polaris is not going for HD. They just are not. They are going for a nice market share where they can make money. In the foreseeable future the motorcycle market is dying off with the baby boomers. 1/2 the market is over 50 with money.

Just IMHO.
 
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H-D finally has a new, modern stock 107" engine and larger bores available with certain models. Indian is banking on selling... nostalgia. Nostalgia that goes back to 1953 and further seems a slim chance of attracting interested bikers in future. How long will the current engine design last until a modern Victory-type engine makes it into the frame?
That new 107 like most Harley d signs is already keeping the service dept busy. After market HD's shops have found performing a leak down test faulty exhaust valve seating from poorly machine heads. Nice !

Indian on the other hand must have addressed the clacking issue because I haven't heard much on that issue on the 17/18 motors.

Talking to a member of the large BN /MC Blue Knights some of there members have gone and traded in fine running 103 HDs for the new M8 only to find more time in the shop for warranty issues. Tranny fluid in the crankcase and running hot issues to name a few.

I truly think HD has planned obsolescence in their products just to keep the most profitable part of their business alive. Service and repair. Smart.
Brainwash and then lead the sheep to slaughter only to resurrect them again and again just because you promised the new model is better than the last.
Throw a party every weekend and keep them coming with bikini bike wash and free beer and hot dogs. Simple right ?

Funny how HD dropped the Dyna line and went softail thru out making the big announcement like they accomplished something great.
Riding on the coat tail of Indian so to speak ..... they developed it thru the whole Chieftain line up since day 1.

Let's not forget what Victory has done to the big twin bagger ride since 2009. Balance and handling ......Still none better.
Indian while a nice ride will have their work cutout to keep the show room lights on.
Some more Victory DNA may be needed In future styling. Who knows ..... we may get our new Victory someday but you can count on an Indian logo being on the tank.
 

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Lone Rider of the Apocolypse
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Like it or not, Polanus Indian is here to stay. Personally I hate these fake, knock-off heritage designs. To me there is only so much market share to be had when you pigeonhole yourself into a segment like that. But they have an established base, and that will carry them through into the foreseeable future. To last long term though they better bring out something new. You know, something other than slightly different paint and wheels.
 
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Harley certainly played Polaris well. The shut down of Victory in hindsight has to be viewed as the Christmas gift of the century to Harley. For most of the last couple decades it’s been advantage Victory on motor and handling, but that wasn’t enough to overcome Heritage, sound, fit and finish. People admitted Victory was a good machine, but couldn’t match the Harley mystique that made Harley’s cool.
So Polaris goes all in on making something look old and heritagey right down to a 2-valve pushrods motor with performance crushing heads that make the pipes point down like old Indians did. Polaris up’ed it’s game on appealing to the Harley crowd, but in going all in, by closing Victory, they surrendered the performance advantage.
Now seven months or so after Victory is shut down, out comes new stiffer frames to put the M8 into. Now HD still has their heritage cred, and they have more performance and handling than Indian. Indian has no advantage anymore. So what’s Polaris to do? They wasted a ton of money developing the TS111 and the Chief line. It’s only four years old, they are still in the red. For all the talk of Victory being a money loser, I HIGHLY doubt Indian has made a return on investment yet. Yes they have sold a lot of bikes and as a new brand you could say they’re off to a good start. But they’re nowhere near the volume of sales where they can design, R&D, and replace engines and frames every four years. They need to be selling a hundred thousand a year for that, not ten thousand.
So they could scrap the TS111 and the Chief platform to replaced by something that does have an advantage, but that means writing off a big loss for a brand that hasn’t made any ROI yet, on top of the fact that they just threw away one that had. And let’s not forget the corner they painted themselves into. The Chief mimics a 1947 Chief specifically to give Polaris Indian heritage claims. So let’s say 2018 or 2019 they release a second gen Chieftain with a water cooled motor. Everyone is going to give them hell for rebadging what would have been a Victory. That’s not Indian heritage, doesn’t look like Indian heritage, doesn’t sound like Indian heritage and so on. To regain an advantage Polaris has to give up what they bailed on Victory to pursue. They’re chasing they’re own tail and Harley will laugh all the way to the bank. After a couple years of Indian losing more money on another new design that’s failing to be more Harley than Harley, Polaris will probably own the distinction of being the company that killed Indian for good.
 

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People who buy the Indian knock offs from Polaris, love the old style DNA and they have no problem with the performance. They are drawn to the, "Its not a Harley" movement. It stands out as something different, another choice and a cool choice at that. They run fine and are fast enough.

Since 2005 everywhere I went with my Triumph America (790 cc. Parallel Twin) lots of people gawking and liking it. Because it was different. It wasn't big, wasn't faster than the 1200 Sporster, but that didn't matter. My Kingpin did not get as much attention as the Triumph. The Kingpin however was much more powerful.

Polaris is not going for HD. They just are not. They are going for a nice market share where they can make money. In the foreseeable future the motorcycle market is dying off with the baby boomers. 1/2 the market is over 50 with money.

Just IMHO.
If they're not going for HD, then they are not trying to sell any bikes. HD is their only competitor. There is not enough new riders entering the big bike market. That fact has been reported a gazillian times. So unless they pull from HD, they're going by by. And it very well may be their plan, then they can focus their attention on Slingshot.
 

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Indian is in it for the long haul. The Scout(Octane) is racking up wins on the flat track. Harley has declared war against Indian by coming out with 100 new models in the next 10 years and re-entering the race world. Then there's the deal with Eaglerider becoming Harley's go to rental company under the condition they STOP renting Indians. Does this sound like a a failing competitor?
Indian Dominates 2017 Flat Track: 14 Wins, 37 Podiums & 6 Podium Sweeps
Flat Track Motorcycle Racing Rises From the Dust
www.fool.com/investing/2017/12/21/harley-davidson-spending-half-million-dollars-to-w.aspx
 

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If they're not going for HD, then they are not trying to sell any bikes. HD is their only competitor. There is not enough new riders entering the big bike market. That fact has been reported a gazillian times. So unless they pull from HD, they're going by by. And it very well may be their plan, then they can focus their attention on Slingshot.
You don't think Indian can get a Yamaha or Honda big bike rider to change over? I bet they get and have gotten a lot of Victory big bike folks. Many on this forum moved over before Victory closed.

They will and do get HD riders. A huge number of big bike riders happen to have a Harley. Like 1/4 million of them just last year were sold.
 
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Lone Rider of the Apocolypse
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You don't think Indian can get a Yamaha or Honda big bike rider to change over? I bet they get and have gotten a lot of Victory big bike folks. Many on this forum moved over before Victory closed.
Not anymore. The new Wing is the class of all big bikes. If I am in the market for a big bike today there is no way in Hell i'm picking that stale old museum piece bike over a new Wing. For that matter I would take a Venture over it, too. The sad part is the Polanus Indian is more expensive than both. You actually have to be into this fake heritage crap to want one today. There is no compelling reason otherwise. That goes for Harley, too. At least Harley is making adjustments to the lineup and freshening things up. All polanus can come up with is paint and wheels. That isn't going to get it in my view. We will see what 2018 brings.
 
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You don't think Indian can get a Yamaha or Honda big bike rider to change over? I bet they get and have gotten a lot of Victory big bike folks. Many on this forum moved over before Victory closed.

They will and do get HD riders. A huge number of big bike riders happen to have a Harley. Like 1/4 million of them just last year were sold.
Then why do you say Polaris is not going after HD? Now you're saying they are. I'm confused.
 

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The term "Going after HD" to me, sounds like they want to be a direct competitor with HD and become bigger than HD or a threat to HDs survival. They are not and probably will not be on that level. Competition has to be on more than one level. Going after HD is like having a hamburger stand and saying you are going after Burger King.

They are going after anybody they can get to buy their motorcycles. So they are going after Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Triumph, BMW as they wish someday to be a threat to HD. All I listed above are larger than Indian and make big bikes. (750cc and bigger) I think HD sells as many big bikes as all of them combined.
 
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Not anymore. The new Wing is the class of all big bikes. If I am in the market for a big bike today there is no way in Hell i'm picking that stale old museum piece bike over a new Wing. For that matter I would take a Venture over it, too. The sad part is the Polanus Indian is more expensive than both. You actually have to be into this fake heritage crap to want one today. There is no compelling reason otherwise. That goes for Harley, too. At least Harley is making adjustments to the lineup and freshening things up. All polanus can come up with is paint and wheels. That isn't going to get it in my view. We will see what 2018 brings.
There are rich Honda/Yamaha types that want that Heritage look but don't want to be in a herd of Harley that will buy Indians. But I agree with you that Indian will never be a really big player.

If I was looking for a rolling couch I would buy the F6B and roll real fast and dependable at the same time. With Indian, you can only get so far with knocking off classic. We could be wrong. In years to come every motorcycle may be an Indian. But I think the hipsters are gonna make a size shift in the industry in future years. 500-750 cruiser sizes are coming back is my prediction.

Just look for big bikes on cycle trader. Big, big, touring bikes. Look at the average garage queen miles on them. Most are touring from the garage to the bar and back.
 

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I have heard rumor of a new motor from Indian in the 117” range, water cooled, 120/120 numbers and several new models in the pipeline. It could all just be speculation though. I for one am quite content on my Vision and will stay with it until no parts can be found to keep it on the road.
 

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I stood in our Indian dealership in conversation regarding Victory’s demise. It was interesting to listen to others speak of why they thought Victory was axed.
Comments like:
“ never could compete with HD “
“ style was too over the top futuristic”
“ no heritage “
“ they never made any money “
“ dealerships and service was poor”

All the things we talk about here but the difference is these people that made these comments have never owned a Victory let alone ride one.

My comment : “ funny .... I still have mine and absolutely will not get rid of it “.

One person there has 2 Harley’s one deluxe and one Ultra low who added a new Springfield to his stable when they first came out.
His favorite ride is the Springfield. Says it’s a much better bike and ride than any HD he’s ridden to date.
All it took was a demo ride and his HD die hard attitude was lifted.
He’s disappointed in HD today. Saying they lost their way and hoped that they would build a better bike today. One with out the issues that the M8 is already exhibiting. Knowledge he’s acquired thru others that have recently bought one. Still he loves his Harley’s and the company saying what’s more American. 115 years. Most popular bikes on the road and last but not least who doesn’t love a Harley !

The competition is very much alive and well between the 2 once again but as I said before Polar-a$$ needed Victory to appeal to more than just the heritage minded individuals. Still they wouldn’t of been able to match HD sales and yes they did loose a large market share imo regarding modern muscle bikes and future sales. There was so much room for improvement in Victory. They had a good bike.
Indian alone won’t get it unles they expand the lineup and start producing next generation bikes.
 
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The term "Going after HD" to me, sounds like they want to be a direct competitor with HD and become bigger than HD or a threat to HDs survival. They are not and probably will not be on that level. Competition has to be on more than one level. Going after HD is like having a hamburger stand and saying you are going after Burger King.

They are going after anybody they can get to buy their motorcycles. So they are going after Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Triumph, BMW as they wish someday to be a threat to HD. All I listed above are larger than Indian and make big bikes. (750cc and bigger) I think HD sells as many big bikes as all of them combined.
Thanks for clarifying. I got you.
 

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I owned and rode Harley's for 20 years. I rode with literally hundreds of other Harley riders over the years. Whenever the subject of Victory motorcycles came up the majority of those Harley riders had two reasons that they would never buy Victory.

1) The most prominent reason by far.... looks. They just did not like the looks of the Victorys, especially the Vision.
2) They were simply die hard Harley riders and they would never ride anything else.

Even the guys I rode with regularly gave me a hard time, and not always in a friendly way, when I quietly traded in my EG Limited for my Chieftain. Grudgingly some of them eventually admitted that it was a nice Bike. One thing was for sure, and still is.... no matter where I rode/ride my Chieftain it stops people in their tracks.

Thinking that most Harley guys will buy Bikes based on performance is just wrong in my opinion. You don't buy a Harley for performance (although many guys do a lot of performance mods). You buy it simply because it IS a Harley... good or bad. I loved all of my Harleys and never had any real problems with any of them. At the time I got rid of my last one in March of 2014 it was a hard decision and Indian was the only brand, at the time, that could have pulled me away from Harley.
Was it nostalgia? Some of it was... I've wanted one since the first time that I saw a photo of one in a magazine about 50 years ago. I could have bought one of the earlier reincarnations but I thought that they were either bikes that might have issues OR they were just priced way to high OR both.
I did my research before I bought my Chieftain and I was convinced that this version of Indian motorcycles was going to be reliable and here to stay for an extended period of time.

I've dealt with two dealers and both of them turn over their Indian Bike stock very fast overall. How many Bikes does Indian sell in a year? Hell I don't know and nobody else except Polaris management knows since they don't release those numbers. Any numbers being stated are purely speculation and my guess is that the numbers I'm seeing are low. Make no mistake..... Indian makes fine motorcycles.

I do think that some of what Victory was working on will work it's way into the Indians for future models. When I saw the Octane (I think it was the Octane) and the Scout I was shocked at the similarities.

I currently own both a 2014 Chieftain and a 2016 Cross Country. I love both of these Bikes. They are each great for different reasons and they each have their own strengths and weaknesses.
The fit and finish on my Chieftain is superior to my Cross Country. More and better trim pieces and everything is "finished". The Cross Country required the addition of some trim pieces to make it look "right" to me. I get stopped everywhere that I go on the Chieftain.... it's just that good looking (to most folks). I don't get stopped when I'm on the Cross Country (even though I think it's bad ass looking).
The Cross Country is definitly roomier and just handles better. My wife likes the comfort of the Cross Country better but absolutely loves the look of the Chieftain. At just over half of the cost of my Indian the Cross Country was a bargain. The Cross Country quickly became my favorite of the two for rides of any length.

Bottom line for me? They are both great Bikes and I'm lucky to have one of each.
 

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There is a thread over on one of the other Polaris motorcycle sites that seems to show that the Polaris Indian riders may have figured out how Polaris is sticking it to them sort of like they did to us Vic riders. Bluntly, because of the EXTREME prices that Polaris charges both for repair parts and accessories folks are finally coming to realize what Polaris is all about..
The thread gives a number of comparable HD parts that are, at a minimum 50% less for the same parts.. An example is being able to purchase a set of brand new HD replacement jugs for $300 when Polaris charges $1800 for a set thru their Indian dealerships. Also mentioned with a HUGE amount of distaste is the amount of plastic being used for trim work and charged outrages prices for - one man's wife bought a set of little cheaply chromed plastic fender pieces @$129 PER PIECE plus shipping. There are numerous folks in that thread mentioning jumping ship because of this nonsense = their words not mine - readable here: http://www.indianmotorcycles.net/threads/most-overpriced-indian-pinnacle-product.212674/

Bottom line, it is becoming all to obvious that the reason Polaris's unwillingness to openly share the actual unit numbers of machines sold (like HD does) and choosing to support their % of the market claims soley with end of year $$ figures has FINALLY come crystal clear - they simply charge 2 or three times more for their parts and accessories than there competitor!!

In my opinion, if there is any future for Polaris's version of an Indian motorcycle repop to actually be feasible, treating their current customers to both reasonable and competitive parts/accessory prices and starting to deal fairly with the aftermarket companies (discussed in the linked thread too) is where it will begin..
 

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WWWWHAAT? Polanus f*cking over their own customers and alienating their rider base? Say it isn't so!! This WILL be their undoing, and it's all at the behest of Scotty Swine.

I still think that any talk of new models is just that, cheap talk. It's not that they are not capable; they have shown glimpses that they can build good machinery. It's just this profit driven mindset and complete disregard for their own customers. I just can't take these clowns seriously. They are going to milk the current lineup until they get seriously in the red. Then they will close the doors and exit the motorcycle industry altogether. Just a matter of when...
 

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To date the best motorcycle engine Polaris ever put out, IMHO, was the Freedom engine in the Victory motorcycles. They may make a better engine someday for the Indian. It might be argued the Scout/Octane engine is better due to being water cooled.

After what Polaris did to Victory though; how can they ever be trusted to keep a brand alive? Answer: They can't. They burned that bridge hard. They did it with the water craft line then with Victory. It almost seems like they really don't make decisions based on anything other than what the bean counters feed them whereas other manufacturers, such as Harley, will do whatever it takes to stay in business.

If Polaris had any integrity, which I don't believe they do, they would sell the Victory name, plans, all of it to someone who would be willing to do what it takes. They won't though because they know Victory would decrease their income from Indian. It's really sad they felt they needed to buy an old name to compete with Harley when all they really needed to do was stick with Victory; something they could be proud of that they invented. Not some Indian knock off.
 
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