[crosscountryla]

Found this post on Face Book on the Indian forum there.

THINKING OF FUEL TUNER? Just an FYI.

Sharing my experience.

I just picked my bike up from the local dealer.

It was there for the motor "clacking" that a lot have been reporting. Mine has slowly become louder after a 2500 mile trip.

Mine motor started the noises shortly after my Indian Stage 2 Cams were installed at 1728 miles on 7/21/17. I didn't think much of it. Figured it must be the valves with the high lift.

At the beginning of this riding season in the North East (April for me) I noticed it seemed to be a bit louder. I mentioned to the dealer and they said it's all normal.

During my West coast trip this summer the noise just kept getting louder. Especially when two up and loaded. I dropped it off to have it diagnosed.

My dealers first response last Tuesday was that it's just normal piston slap that all the 14-17 motors have due to the design. I insisted that this was more than piston slap. I expressed my displeasure in purchasing a 33k Icon series RM to have this piston slap that might not be mechanical problem now but IMO will be in the next 75,000 miles. It sounds horrible. He asked if I had a Fuel tuner. I was honest and informed him I had installed a Dyno Jet tuner shortly after the Cams were installed. His tune immediately changed. He said he would be back in touch.
Wednesday the dealer called to inform me tuners do not work on the Indian ECU. As the Indian tuner is fighting with the Dyno Jet Fuel map. My pistons are now considered damaged due to lean conditions and not warranted by Polaris/Indian.

Dealer insisted that I put the Indian Stage 2 download back on the bike. But not until I paid 220.00 for another download code. (Currently Disputing this with Polaris/Indian)

Today I picked my bike up. I asked the dealer what type of diagnosis was done to determine that my pistons were damaged by a lean condition. Visual scope, compression test, valve seal pressure test? Opened the motor?

Greg White

August 31 at 9:59 AM
Just spoke with Indian Customer Service.

Indian has agreed to refund the 2nd purchase of the stage 2 download.

Unfortunately, it seems I am SOL with my engine noise. The dealer is standing by the fact that my fuel tuner caused what ever is making the noise In the motor. Even with zero diagnostic work they are confident that the motor is damaged and the cause is the fuel tuner.

****Update. I called back to confirm that Indian wasn't going to look into my motor noises any further. I was told. They would not do any more than they already have. They already authorized the 220.00 refund for the stage 2 tune and that the tuner comprised the motor. Any damages to the motor should be taken up with Dyno Jet.

Learn from my mistake. Don't add a fuel tuner until your warranty is expired.

I've been messaged by other owners that they've had the noise for many miles and zero issues.

I've done my own diagnostic work. Compression is good. Oil change had no abnormal metal in the pan. Oil filter as well. Oil didn't smell like fuel. I will be using a bore scope this evening to look inside the cylinder.

Anybody want to buy a 2017 Icon RM 7200 miles. 24,500

NOTHING other than a test ride to listen was done.

So basically Polaris is going to rest their lousy piston design on you if you have any aftermarket tuner.

Dealer did give conveniently give me an estimate for having the 2018 pistons installed. Next spring I will most likely have the big bore kit installed. If I don't sell it prior.

Photos from dealer included.

This post is by no means a slam on my dealer. Their hands are tied. They will only do what is authorized by Polaris. As well as relay info from Polaris. It's clear Polaris has washed their hands of my piston slap issue. Without ever even looking into the motor.
As they will do your if you put any other tune besides Indian.

My bike still runs fine. Not as well as it did with the Dyno Jet tune...but it still runs. It just has that Dam clacking noise from 2100 to 3000 rpm.

Greg White

August 31 at 9:59 AM
Just spoke with Indian Customer Service.

Indian has agreed to refund the 2nd purchase of the stage 2 download.

Unfortunately, it seems I am SOL with my engine noise. The dealer is standing by the fact that my fuel tuner caused what ever is making the noise In the motor. Even with zero diagnostic work they are confident that the motor is damaged and the cause is the fuel tuner.

****Update. I called back to confirm that Indian wasn't going to look into my motor noises any further. I was told. They would not do any more than they already have. They already authorized the 220.00 refund for the stage 2 tune and that the tuner comprised the motor. Any damages to the motor should be taken up with Dyno Jet.

Learn from my mistake. Don't add a fuel tuner until your warranty is expired.

I've been messaged by other owners that they've had the noise for many miles and zero issues.

I've done my own diagnostic work. Compression is good. Oil change had no abnormal metal in the pan. Oil filter as well. Oil didn't smell like fuel. I will be using a bore scope this evening to look inside the cylinder.

Anybody want to buy a 2017 Icon RM 7200 miles. 24,500

Below is a another very good article about the why the big inch Indian's clack

My Indian Roadmaster

 

[VicVisionBulldog]

I'm not sure I would still speak well of my dealer if that's how I was treated.

They obviously didn't want to help. First they said it was normal until they were given another out with the tuner. That's not a good policy in my book.

 

[vision_nut]

first off don't go to that dealer.
Who did the dyno tune on the PCV. Go back after him he didn't tune it right if it was lean.
Don't know where you are but call Lloydz and ask where his indian dealership is and go see them.

 

[theshank]

There had been much talk about the clack. Some have got it liveable with a tuner. And now some have put in the new 2019 pistons ( redesigned) and have fixed it. From what I understand it’s a small percentage of bikes that clack. But it’s a real problem for those that do.

 

[crosscountryla]

first off don't go to that dealer.
Who did the dyno tune on the PCV. Go back after him he didn't tune it right if it was lean.
Don't know where you are but call Lloydz and ask where his indian dealership is and go see them.

I recently talked to the head guy on the Indian demo truck and asked him if all of the new 2019 , Indian 111 engines had the same heavy duty connecting rods in them as the 116 engine that has the heavy duty rods. I then told him about the connecting rods failing on the 111 engines before the 2019 engines came out. He then told me that all of the connecting rod problems all had after market fuel tuners installed and that is why the connecting rods failed ,but none of the 111 engines that had the factory stage one ignition programs installed at the dealership had Connecting rods problems.

 

[theshank]

I recently talked to the head guy on the Indian demo truck and asked him if all of the new 2019 , Indian 111 engines had the same heavy duty connecting rods in them as the 116 engine that has the heavy duty rods. I then told him about the connecting rods failing on the 111 engines before the 2019 engines came out. He then told me that all of the connecting rod problems all had after market fuel tuners installed and that is why the connecting rods failed ,but none of the 111 engines that had the factory stage one ignition programs installed at the dealership had Connecting rods problems.

The stock connecting rods are chicken bones, look at them. Huge mistake in engineering. Even Lyods upgrade kit came with new rods way back.

 

[crosscountryla]

The stock connecting rods are chicken bones, look at them. Huge mistake in engineering. Even Lyods upgrade kit came with new rods way back.

I was told the exact same thing by Nick Pint at Norseman Performance when he took off the top end of an Indian 111.

 

[VicVisionBulldog]

I recently talked to the head guy on the Indian demo truck and asked him if all of the new 2019 , Indian 111 engines had the same heavy duty connecting rods in them as the 116 engine that has the heavy duty rods. I then told him about the connecting rods failing on the 111 engines before the 2019 engines came out. He then told me that all of the connecting rod problems all had after market fuel tuners installed and that is why the connecting rods failed ,but none of the 111 engines that had the factory stage one ignition programs installed at the dealership had Connecting rods problems.

Interesting. So the Indian wasn't over built like the Vics 106. Pretty crappy that you can't put a fuel tuner on a motor without causing damage.

 

[jmstang302]

That's BS. Polaris taking a way out of warranty repairs.

I've ridden a PC-V tuned 111 that has been coast to coast .

 

[Tenax66]

I don't buy the Indian tune conflicted with the fuel tuner. Wouldn't the Dynojet tune override the Indian tune? (Or am I thinking about it in the context of the PV CX and other DJ tuners don't "replace" the stock tune like a flash does?) I'm curious if DJ has been contacted about this and responded.

 

[edword]

Sounds like some B.S. to me

 

[Tenax66]

Wow..look at the difference in con rod size for the stock vs the replacement...

View attachment 499457

 

[jayleav]

I would not buy a bike from a dealership that told me they would refuse to warranty a bike with a fuel tuner on it. I’ve talked to several dealerships over the years who openly suggest a tuner, and I’ve talked to several who are dead set against them. Most Japanese brand dealers are all for them, some Harley shops will support using them but most any Vic/Indian dealers will balk at the idea of using one. I learned that lesson after I bought my first Vic. I’ll either buy used and not worry about a warranty or search and find a dealer who is ok with using a tuner (Lloyd the only one ?).

 

[theshank]

Wow..look at the difference in con rod size for the stock vs the replacement...

View attachment 499457

As you can see it was not a tune that caused any problems. It was the cheap rods. By the way there version 2 big bore kit now comes with those aftermarket rods. Carrillo makes them.

 

[Trout]

This BS always amazes me!
How long have internal combustion engines been around?
Seems like manufacturers have to "rebuild the wheel" instead of looking at history.

 

[theshank]

View attachment 499493

This BS always amazes me!
How long have internal combustion engines been around?
Seems like manufacturers have to "rebuild the wheel" instead of looking at history.

No kidding look at the victory connecting rod. Old Scott Wine should of said " the cheaper horse " not " the better horse ".

 

[primethious]

There's nothing inherently wrong with the standard looking connecting rod.

The problem of the clacking is the dry oil sump not quite getting enough oil out of the cranks way.
When the crank smacks the oil that's not supposed to be there it creates a clacking sound.
Unfortunately Polaris knows this requires a complete tear down to replace the oil pump, and has done nothing but blame the customer's use of a freakin fuel tuner to save themselves money, and to keep their stock prices artificially inflated.

Over time the crank smacking the oil will prematurely wear the bottom end components.
This is the kind of crap that keeps my money pointed towards any other motorcycle manufacturer....Scott Wine or otherwise.

 

[Trout]

Hell, old Briggs & Straton engines used a "dipper" system for years.
The rod had a piece of metal that splashed oil onto the rod & crank.
There wass a hole in the rod that lets the oil onto the "bearing" surface.

Maybe Indian should consider using that as a model.

 

[WHITE_VIC]

There's nothing inherently wrong with the standard looking connecting rod.

The problem of the clacking is the dry oil sump not quite getting enough oil out of the cranks way.
When the crank smacks the oil that's not supposed to be there it creates a clacking sound.
Unfortunately Polaris knows this requires a complete tear down to replace the oil pump, and has done nothing but blame the customer's use of a freakin fuel tuner to save themselves money, and to keep their stock prices artificially inflated.

Over time the crank smacking the oil will prematurely wear the bottom end components.
This is the kind of crap that keeps my money pointed towards any other motorcycle manufacturer....Scott Wine or otherwise.

I remember someone posting a test about this where they were able to eliminate the clacking by messing with the oil. It was never a tuning issue.

 

[WHITE_VIC]

Found it

I helped a friend diagnose the cause of his 2015 Indians loud "Clack". Here's the rundown:
The engine has a semi-dry sump, with most of the oil at the rear, in a baffled chamber. A small amount of "drain back oil resides forward of this area, in the shared crank and trans area. (This is why the 111 has two drain plugs. The pump is located at the very rear, inside the trans/crankcase. It is driven by a plastic gear off of the clutch hub on the left side of the engine. Unlike a Harley which is a full-dry sump, with an easily accessed oil pump, the 111's oil pump can only be accessed by removing the engine from the frame, removing the heads and jugs, all side covers, and splitting the cases - practically a complete disassemble of the engine. ( there's a reason I'm pointing this out, which I'll come back to later) The pump is actually two gerotor pumps. One set of its gerotors scavenges oil from the crank & tranny side, returning it to the baffled sump area at the rear. The other set of gerotors is the pressure side of the pump that supplied oil under pressure to the engine bearings, bushings & lifters, etc. The pump has a pick-up tube ( the oil inlet from the sump area) that is near the bottom rear of the case. And there is an oil tube (called a snorkel tube in the IMC factory manual) which extends nearly to the TOP of the transmission case. The scavenger side of the pump is the suspected problem.

First, here's why I mentioned the difficulty of accessing the 111's oil pump: From our recent tests, I think some of the "Clacker" engines have defective or poor performing scavenger gerotors in their oil pumps.

Inefficient scavenging causes oil "sumping"; where the oil level inside the crankcase area is too high because the scavenger pump is not performing as well as it should. This slightly higher oil level causes a loud mechanical-like "Clack" or knock when a counterbalance weight on either the crank or the balance shaft hits the surface of the oil in the crankcase. Harley engines ocassionally suffer a similar "oil sumping" problem - they make a helluva clatter. When it occurs, the HD tech can simply remove the cam chest cover, realign the oil pump and/or put in new orings, and button it back up. Takes about 45 mins.
With our 111's, we're talking major engine overhaul, and a new pump...so the factory has a HUGE incentive not to want to acknowledge the problem. And here's the kicker: Unless the scavenger side of the pump fails completely, the oil level will only "sump" too high at certain rpm/ temp/load ranges .... some engines more than others, and it will not significantly "hurt" the engine ( it does lower HP/TQ output slightly & effect mpg, and will eventually effect engine longevity - but by then it'll many thousands of miles out of warranty, so again, the factory has no incentive to recognize "Clacking" as a problem). Also, if a tech disassembles the engine, looking for the cause of the noise, there is a 99.9% chance he will not find it - because there is not oil in the engine when he's got apart (duh ; and there will be no signs or marks on the counterweights from slapping the oil's surface; and 99.99% of all techs NEVER inspect the oil pump's gerotors to the degree of finding, say, a 5 to 10% loss of efficiency. AND because the output or pressure side of the pump develops much more psi than the engine bearings require, there is no immediate danger of ruining the engine, even if this side of the pump is a little loose.

The reason some 111's clack and some do not, or why some clack louder than others depends on the oil level in the crank side of the case WHILE the engine is RUNNING. This oil level depends on the efficiency of the scavenger side of the oil pump (which is determined by factory manufacturing tolerance stack), the oil temp/viscosity, the engine RPMs ( which determines how fast the output side of pump "fills" the crankcase with oil).

Here's how we diagnose this condition as it related to "Clacking":
1. We verified the oil level was correct on the dipstick.
2. Then ran the engine and determined the rpms and oil temp where the clacking was loudest.
3. Removed the plug that drains the crank area of the case and installed a brass cut-off valve, hose barb, and about 12" of soft clear 1/2"hose with a plug at the other.
4. With the valve off, we refilled/ran the engine to verify once again, the oil level on the stick was correct.
5. Ran the engine at the previous rpms, and up to temp until it began to clack as before.
6. While it clacked, we opened the valve an let the oil in the crank area drain into the tube - the clacking quit almost immediately when the oil level in the crank area dropped. the noise went away for about 4 minutes, or until the level rose again.
7. We then turned the valve off, and drained the oil from the tube.
8. With the valve still off, we added the oil from the tube back into the crank case. The fast idled the engine a minute and again verified the oil level on the stick was correct.
9. Once again, we ran the engine at the previous rpms, and up to temp until it began to clack as before.
While it clacked, we opened the valve an let the oil in the crank area drain into the tube - again, the clacking quit almost immediately. as soon as it did, we rolled/squeezed the tube to force the oil back into the case, which made the oil level rise again, - and the Clacking immediately resumed.

So we're sure the noise is due to oil sumping / crank or balance shaft hitting the oil surface.

However, one should keep this in mind: IMHO and from my experience, there at least 3 different abnormal noises often described as "Clacking" by some 111 owners. I know some of the early "easy-start cams" made a "lifter-like rattle". I also know that a clacking noise is caused by a sticking timing chain tensioner. And I also strongly believe the worst "clackers" are cause by the oil sumping condition described above. And some times pinging (detonation) will be called Clacking by some folks.

Anyway, just letting y'all know what we discovered over the weekend. Your mileage may vary
Respects,
Tom - AMS