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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
from todays shareholder report

Motorcycles
segment sales, including PG&A, totaled $150 million, down three percent compared to the third quarter of 2018. Both Indian and Slingshot reported sales decline during the quarter. Gross profit for the third quarter of 2019 was $12 million compared to $20 million in the third quarter of 2018. The decrease in gross profit was primarily due to tariff costs and negative mix.

North American consumer retail sales for Polaris Indian motorcycles decreased mid-teens percent during the third quarter of 2019 primarily due to the weak mid to heavy-weight two-wheel motorcycle industry that was down high-single digits percent and retail pressure from heavy competitive promotional spending. North American consumer retail sales for Polaris' motorcycle segment, including both Indian Motorcycles and Slingshot, decreased low-double digit percent during the third quarter of 2019, while the North American Motorcycle industry retail sales for mid to heavy-weight motorcycles including three-wheel vehicles, was down low-single digits percent in the third quarter of 2019.
 

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from todays shareholder report

Motorcycles
segment sales, including PG&A, totaled $150 million, down three percent compared to the third quarter of 2018. Both Indian and Slingshot reported sales decline during the quarter. Gross profit for the third quarter of 2019 was $12 million compared to $20 million in the third quarter of 2018. The decrease in gross profit was primarily due to tariff costs and negative mix.

North American consumer retail sales for Polaris Indian motorcycles decreased mid-teens percent during the third quarter of 2019 primarily due to the weak mid to heavy-weight two-wheel motorcycle industry that was down high-single digits percent and retail pressure from heavy competitive promotional spending. North American consumer retail sales for Polaris' motorcycle segment, including both Indian Motorcycles and Slingshot, decreased low-double digit percent during the third quarter of 2019, while the North American Motorcycle industry retail sales for mid to heavy-weight motorcycles including three-wheel vehicles, was down low-single digits percent in the third quarter of 2019.
It goes from bad to worse. I haven't read this one, but operating costs usually average 19% across all brands. Some quarters a percent more, some a percent less but on average right about 19. Logically an average means some divisions are more and some are less, so it stands to reason that the smaller divisions that don't have the economies of scale of the largest division, would be higher than the average.

So just make it nice easy round numbers. 150 million revenue with operating costs of 20% means 30 million dollars spent on operating the division. A division that had a gross profit of only 12 million. Which means a net loss of 18 million dollars in one quarter. Sales still going down AFTER the FTR was added to the lineup...that division is bleeding money.
 

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^^ sounds like its going the same way as Victory ...... already losing a lot of money
Ya well at 15k for a single seater, 30k for a Touring bike stripped down, 40k for everything you really need, 50k with everything you need and want with tax.......
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

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but they just released the info on the powerplus 108 PowerPlus - Indian Most Powerful Engine | Indian Motorcycle

122hp at the crank. Should put it at right about 100 at the street.

yawn.................

only 27500 for the new bike with this mediocre motor...
I haven't seen a weight claim on it but I doubt it's going to be light. I did see were that 122 was made at 5500 rpm, 6500 redline. So yeah, it's not going to ride much different than the Harley it copies. I thought maybe it would be a motor you could wind out to 8k but 100 at the wheel, hp peaks at 5500.... that's real close to a stage 1 Cross Country, less than a cam'd XC.
 

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I hope you're right. I wouldn't mind picking one up at a huge discount. IMO, the 3.4 gallon gas tank is a deal breaker though. I'm hoping that more bikes come off of the FTR platform. I would be more interested in an AdvTouring or a SportsTouring bike off this platform in the $15k price range.:fiddy:
 

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but they just released the info on the powerplus 108 PowerPlus - Indian Most Powerful Engine | Indian Motorcycle

122hp at the crank. Should put it at right about 100 at the street.

yawn.................

only 27500 for the new bike with this mediocre motor...
No...Should put it at 112 hp at the rear wheel....stock, which is considerable leap from the 106 stock.
Also, the engine is setup to easily change cams.... so I am certain 130hp isn't hard to obtain.

The FTR is 120 at crank and every dyno has it 110-112 hp at rear wheel.

It's gonna be cool.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
No...Should put it at 112 hp at the rear wheel....stock, which is considerable leap from the 106 stock.
Also, the engine is setup to easily change cams.... so I am certain 130hp isn't hard to obtain.

The FTR is 120 at crank and every dyno has it 110-112 hp at rear wheel.

It's gonna be cool.
Not even close being an apple to apple comparison. I'm sure the challenger is going to weigh a lot more than the FTR which won't make it feel all that sporty. Also the FTR has an 8500 max rpm where the 108 is at 6500 rpm max but claims it's 122 at 5500. The suck/squeeze/bang/blow higher RPM puts out higher dyno numbers.

Also i'm sure the touring bike is geared/tuned closer for max torque than hp. Hence he 122hp in a 108" motor vs 120 in 74" in the FTR.

Now what the aftermarket guys can do, could be interesting, doesn't mean they'll get the same results we saw in the 106", but who knows, maybe even better.

I'll stick by my original yawn statement until they prove to me otherwise. with the sales drop they saw 3rd quarter this year compared to even last year who knows what they will do with the brand.

I'm mostly surprised the slingshot hasn't been pulled yet.
 

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No...Should put it at 112 hp at the rear wheel....stock, which is considerable leap from the 106 stock.
Also, the engine is setup to easily change cams.... so I am certain 130hp isn't hard to obtain.

The FTR is 120 at crank and every dyno has it 110-112 hp at rear wheel.

It's gonna be cool.
I googled "Indian FTR 1200 dyno chart" this is the first image:
Rectangle Slope Plot Font Line


No doubt the FRR is far and away the coolest bike in Indian's lineup. And it's failing, sales are declining, losses are rising. This is just a guess but I suspect pricing it 3-5k above the rest of the market is probably a giant boat anchor on the FTR's sales. I'm sure the new Challenger will be a quality motorcycle, we all know Polaris is capable of building great bikes. In one of these threads someone posted the pricing starting at 28k. For a basic bagger. So add a trunk, add lowers, add a luggage rack, add an extended reach seat, add two tone paint....35-40k dollar motorcycle. And now you need 500 dollar cams, 1000 dollar pipes, 300 dollar intake, 300 dollar tuner, and at least 500 in labor for the install and tune. 38-43k dollars to get it the way you want it. And people thought Motus was expensive.

I hope it's everything you want it to be, but I suggest you not wait to buy it. With Indian losing 40-80 million dollars a year I have no doubt what's going through Scott Wine's mind right now, "If I kill Indian I can buy a bigger yacht with the savings..." At losses like this Indian is on a short leash. An ugly Road Glide copy isn't going to accomplish what the coolest bike in Indian's lineup failed to do.
 

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Funny thing about the FTR. It doesn't really know what it wants to be! The natural tendency is to place it in the same class as naked streetfighter type bikes, where clearly it gets its @ss kicked. This bike can't really compete with bikes like the S1000R or the Tuono V4 Factory. My God that is such a good bike. And it costs basically the same as the FTR S model. So which one would I choose? I have chosen the Tuono already! I just have to find a way to pull it off. This will be the bike that replaces the Suzuki.

But you get where I am going with this. It's a very good bike, but it is not reviewing as well as they would like because of where it lands in the market. It's just kinda hangin out there like a Matzo ball!

 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
people are missing the big takeways, in Q3 of 2019 Indian motorcycle sales were down even more than industry standard.

North American consumer retail sales for Polaris Indian motorcycles decreased mid-teens percent during the third quarter of 2019 primarily due to the weak mid to heavy-weight two-wheel motorcycle industry that was down high-single digits percent

Indian Motorcycles and Slingshot, decreased low-double digit percent during the third quarter of 2019, while the North American motorcycle industry retail sales for mid to heavy-weight motorcycles including three-wheel vehicles, was down low-single digits percent in the third quarter of 2019

This doesn't really bode well for the brand.

Wine and Menneto killed Victory thinking Indian would be their golden ticket. The part that really sucks is that they kept Victory and it's intellectual property and just shelved it. This means they could do the same for the Indian name
 
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@Gossamer Oh no, I'm with ya. Basically they keep missing the mark. And they continue to price most everyone out of the market in a time when the market is losing the ability to support excessively priced bikes such as this. The value proposition just isn't there. There are only so many richie riches and suckers who will pay that sticker. Younger riders don't seem to have much of a taste for these bikes for any number of reasons. But Polaris just doesn't learn. They keep leaning on the whole Premium brand schtick to justify the outrageous pricing they employ. Well, the day of reckoning is fast approaching!

Will they cut and run from the motorcycle industry? I used to think so, but not so much anymore. I think they want to stay, but I think they are going to have a tough time if they stay committed to the current strategy. Wine doesn't have a damned clue, and it is showing. Menetto? He isn't even worth mentioning.
 

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people are missing the big takeways, in Q3 of 2019 Indian motorcycle sales were down even more than industry standard.

North American consumer retail sales for Polaris Indian motorcycles decreased mid-teens percent during the third quarter of 2019 primarily due to the weak mid to heavy-weight two-wheel motorcycle industry that was down high-single digits percent

Indian Motorcycles and Slingshot, decreased low-double digit percent during the third quarter of 2019, while the North American motorcycle industry retail sales for mid to heavy-weight motorcycles including three-wheel vehicles, was down low-single digits percent in the third quarter of 2019

This doesn't really bode well for the brand.

Wine and Menneto killed Victory thinking Indian would be their golden ticket. The part that really sucks is that they kept Victory and it's intellectual property and just shelved it. This means they could do the same for the Indian name
Polaris doesn't seem to separate Slingshot and Indian sales. I suspect that Slingshot sales are a huge drain and that actual motorcycle sales continue to do well. If that's the case, maybe Polaris will finally pull the support from the Slingshot line. To be closely followed by another Victory type announcement regarding Slingshot being killed off.

I think I've seen more Fiat 124 Spiders from the 1970s and 1980s on the road than I have Slingshots.
 

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@Chattanooga_Mark Last time I was in my dealers, they didn't even have a Slingshot on the floor. You just don't see them - anywhere. If Wine wants to cut something, cut that cancer from your lineup.
 

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Polaris doesn't seem to separate Slingshot and Indian sales. I suspect that Slingshot sales are a huge drain and that actual motorcycle sales continue to do well. If that's the case, maybe Polaris will finally pull the support from the Slingshot line. To be closely followed by another Victory type announcement regarding Slingshot being killed off.

I think I've seen more Fiat 124 Spiders from the 1970s and 1980s on the road than I have Slingshots.
Polaris does separate Slingshot and Indian. They are combined to report total revenue, but they are individually addressed in the reports. Indian is down. Even adding FTR, Indian is down compared to last year without FTR. Indian has been down, actual motorcycle sales...suck. When you apply operating expenses to gross profit, Indian and Slingshot are losing money. Indian has never turned a profit for Polaris.
 

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Polaris doesn't seem to separate Slingshot and Indian sales. I suspect that Slingshot sales are a huge drain and that actual motorcycle sales continue to do well. If that's the case, maybe Polaris will finally pull the support from the Slingshot line. To be closely followed by another Victory type announcement regarding Slingshot being killed off.

I think I've seen more Fiat 124 Spiders from the 1970s and 1980s on the road than I have Slingshots.
Actually the Slingshot sales were down mid single digits this time and Indianid teens. Polaris needs to show actual units sold. Another factor that is overlooked is that Indians had a price increase at the first of the year.
 

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I see more Slongshots in Des Moines than Indians.
Well sheeit, there they are! LOL!! I know they are selling some of these things. You would think that there would be a lot more sightings of them out here where the weather is generally more favorable, but I just don't. And I'm out there almost every day. Strange, that...

Oh well! What a man does with his money is his own thing. If one wants to buy a Sling shot - by gum you go and do that! They do look kinda fun, truth be told. It's just not something that I personally have any desire to own. Would I possibly rent one for the day? SURE! In fact...
 
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