EV bikes - not ready for prime time as yet | Victory Motorcycles: Motorcycle Forums

EV bikes - not ready for prime time as yet

Discussion in 'Victory General Discussion' started by 1stVictory, Nov 27, 2020.

  1. 1stVictory

    1stVictory Well-Known Member

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    They are trick but you don't need trick, you need a reliable charger network that just doesn't exist at this time. A bar hopper at best. He mentions Long Way Up. Ewen and Charlie were obsessed with diminishing energy level and where to charge. This writer had the very same issue but not in the middle of nowhere South America but in California! A good and informative read.

    I Took A Harley-Davidson LiveWire On A Road Trip And Everything That Could Have Gone Wrong Did
     
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  2. iabob

    iabob Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn’t think of looking at electrics for a touring bike right now. Why would you when there are so many better alternatives? It’s like making a sport bike with a Harley engine in it. Yes, technically you can, but why? I would look at electrics for many other kinds of bikes, but not for a touring bike. That’s my biggest beef with any of these reviews really, it’s like, “Hey let’s take what they do the worst, ignore what they do the best, then use that as a reason to discredit any use of them”. It’s disingenuous.
     
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  3. psimpson

    psimpson Member

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    And he thinks he's not burning any fossil fuel because it's electric.
     
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  4. Texasbaehr

    Texasbaehr Well-Known Member

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    The big push for electric vehicles is rushing to comercialize immature technology and will lead to bigger issues than it's worth in the short term.
    Most homes do not have the electrical service for the Super charger systems that can recharge an EV quickly so either spend thousands upgrading the homes service and an Outlet for the charger or use 110v or 220v low amperage for a 8 -12 hr charge time.
    If a large number of EVs are charging in an area the power system and grid in that area may not be able to handle the load. Power systems in many large cites are over 50 years old and already stressed due to population growth. In many parts of California the grid is already over capacity and environmental pressure is preventing sorely needed upgrade or expansion.
    Adding charging stations for commuters in cities and parking structures poses even bigger issues in large cities as utilities are underground, very old and would require tens of millions to upgrade assuming the grid can even support it.

    Eventually we will get there but we need to focus on the electrical grid and power supply systems before we flood the market with EVs.

    Also, lithium is a very limited resource. A mandatory battery recycling program must be implemented to extend this resource lifespan. There are already hundreds of millions of LiIon batteries in landfills.

    And don't get me going about hydrogen powered cars. Right now 99% of hydrogen is made by reforming natural gas or by electrolysis of brine. Both of which require more energy to produce the hydrogen than the energy you would get out of it using it for fuel. There's more greenhouse gases produced to make it then you save by burning the H2 for fuel instead of fossil fuel. There are many processes to make H2 using less energy or biomass but they are small scale and very far from commercialization.
     
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  5. ForestGiant

    ForestGiant Active Member

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    Interesting that the author mentions testing a new ( make over ) of the 2021 Slingshot in Malibu, which will be officially released on Dec. 8th. I guess Polaris has not thrown in the towel yet, but of course with Polaris that can change in an instant.
     
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  6. iabob

    iabob Well-Known Member

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    There seems to be a lot of worry and hand wringing over the free market delivering a product to consumers who freely choose a wether or not to purchase the product. Quit with the socialism and just let capitalism take its course. A few observations:

    It does not cost thousands to charge an EV at home. It costs much less to purchase electricity for an EV than the cost of gas for an ICE vehicle. You can use 110 ac, or adding a 220 ac outlet to a garage is cheap. There is very little demand for at home DC fast chargers as most people sleep in the same house that they park their car at. So walk through the worst case scenario: A guy buys a Tesla with a 250 mile range. All he has is a 110 outlet that only gives him about 100 miles of range plugged in for 8 hours. Well, 250 miles is an average week’s worth of driving so all he needs to do is remember to plug it in overnight at least twice a week. Or if he drops 100 bucks on getting a 220 outlet installed he can do it only plugging in once a week. Plugging in twice a week would be if he did extra driving for shopping trips or something. Fast charging infrastructure only comes into play if the individual lives in a single car household, or multiple EV only household, and wants to road trip, and doesn’t do the simple thing Inwoulddo, rent a car to rack up those road trip miles on. So he on that one trip that he doesn’t have or doesn’t choose an alternative vehicle for, he would have to go online and pick out one of the already existing fast chargers or one of the many fast chargers that are being added to the grid everyday.

    There is no such thing as free energy. Solar and wind come the closest, but all energy requires energy to get. It costs more energy to drill, transport, refine, deliver, and pump a gallon of gas than the energy contained in a gallon of gas. Same for hydrogen, same for ethanol, same for natural gas.

    Mining for colbalt to make the now outdated Li batteries (colbalt free Li is now on the market) is dirty. Drilling for oil is dirty. Mining and burning coal is dirty. Getting what we want comes with costs, all of them. We don’t need the government to mandate our recycling behaviors. We need less government involvement in our daily lives not more. If there is value to recycling Lithium then capitalists in a free market will make money recycling lithium. If there is no market to do that then we bury it in a landfill. Then a few centuries from now if there’s a new use for it it will get re-mined out of the ground just like it was mined the first time. It came out of the ground, nothing inherently wrong with putting it back in the ground.

    If California or any other state doesn’t have the infrastructure to meet demand the answer is simple: add infrastructure. We have much greater demand today than what the infrastructure was capable of carrying in 1980. Which at that time was much greater demand than what the infrastructure in 1940 was capable of delivering. Demand always leads supply. Demand is growing, just as is has since Thomas Edison’s day. So infrastructure gets added. Fortunately today we have more choices than ever when it comes to this.
     
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  7. Texasbaehr

    Texasbaehr Well-Known Member

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    LAbob, your worst case scenario is more like a best case. in many large cities the average commute is 50+ miles. Here in the Houston area it can be much more. As population pushes further out into the suburbs, commutes increase. Most homes only have a 50 - 100 Amp service line into the home unless it's a newer home in a newer neighborhood. Many older homes in older cities that have not been updated have 30Amp service. A Tesla supercharger station requires 480V 3 phase power, Destination charger that can be used at home to quickly charge the EV requires 240V and minimum of 32 Amps which will overload most home service lines and an electrician will not install it if it exceeds the load on the service line. A neighbor recently had to upgrade their service and panel to 200 amp for their Tesla. Replacing the service line from the transformer to the house , upgrading the panel and installing the charger cost them $4800. His commute is 55mi one way then side trips, running kids to activities, he nearly uses up the range on his car four or 5 days a week. This is not and isolated case, I commuted 57mi each way when I was working as do many people in our area.
    His company wont install any outlets in the parking garage because it is independently operated like most garages and would require a dedicated EV parking area and the expense of the installation that the company ( a fortune 100, non energy related company) would not pay for. They have an office in California and the (socialist) government there requires all companies to have dedicated EV parking and charging.
    Yes it is much cheaper to fuel a EV than a ICE per mile but the life cycle costs and true environmental impact are yet to be determined. Like I said in my original post, we will eventually get there but it's immature technology being forced to market now.

    The reason I pick on H2 is the environmental lobby is touting it as "pollution free" fuel for transportation and it is not any better than gasoline or diesel when all production and distribution is included in the life cycle for all products. It's smoke and mirrors right now. Environmentalist say they can use solar or wind power to make H2 by electrolysis but for the foreseeable future that argument is impractical and unrealistic due to the massive power requirements for that process. So now most H2 is made by burning NG or other fuel in a steam/methane Reformer to crack the H2 from NG or from some other H2 rich off gas. I'm retired from the Industrial Gases business and our company and the industry in general burns millions of engineering and research hours trying to come up with a better alternative that can be scaled up to meet the needs. So far lot's of great processes have been developed but none have made it out of the lab or past small Beta Test facilities.

    Sure eventually Li batteries will get replaced by better energy storage technology, but for the foreseeable future all EVs that are ready to flood the market are using LI technology. So, like the socialists forcing companies to install EV parking and chargers, the socialists are going to need to force recycling. Very few people will not do it on their own.

    California Generators have tried to upgrade the grid and environmentalists force the government to stop the plans because the new towers, lines and power generators will hurt the environment so they are building solar and wind energy which uses even more land area but its OK because its "Green Energy", more smoke and mirrors.
     
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  8. iabob

    iabob Well-Known Member

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    I think we’re in agreement on a lot of points, but misunderstanding some. My worst case is indeed the current worst case. In the best case a guy has a 220 outlet in his garage, but like a whole bunch of parts of the country, he drives much less that 250 miles per week. For instance my daily commute is 18 miles, 9 each way. Add some extra, call it 25 per day, that’s 125 per work week. So why would I even need a 220 AC outlet? If a full charge is 250 miles I plug into 110 once a week and never go below half charge. If I do I could always plug in a second night. That’s best case. I’m not seeing any reason why a home owner would need a Super or Destination charger in their garage, even with a 100 mile daily commute, 50 each way, a cheapo level 2 charger (220AC) would still be more than enough. Even 110 charging overnight will give you 100 miles leaving you a 150 mile reserve on a 250 mile battery.

    I agree that H2 is the most interesting technology, with the most cumbersome hurdles to overcome. Just a guess, but I think solid state batteries render the hydrogen experiment moot. They’re already making batteries that hold 7 times the energy, charge in minutes, and have no fire risks. The real hurdle with batteries isn’t can we make them, it’s developing the manufacturing to make them at scale.
     
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  9. 1stVictory

    1stVictory Well-Known Member

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    Change of subject. So the bike readout states you have 150 miles of charge. How is that determined? Like the EPA determining fuel mileage? 70F, no wind, flat smooth ground? In a perfect world (an oxymoron), you'd get on that bike and ride 150 miles but hoping to find a charging station before then. A charging station that is available and not 2 cars ahead of you. Then have an hour coffee break. But then you head east and there's elevation increase, a terrible headwind, a cold front coming in and watch the mileage numbers start falling. And this isn't a touring situation. It's a ride to somewhere to visit a friend 3 hrs away that will take double that time or more. Oh, and don't forget that feeling of saving the world cost upwards of $30K US. You're not saving a damn thing. You're on an electric toy because that's all it is. An around-town toy for the well heeled. EV's will NEVER replace gasoline and diesel. How big of a battery would be needed to run an 80,000 lb semi through the rockies delivering fresh vegetables and fruit? A locomotive pulling a mile long train of full coal cars, loaded containers? Everything in your life was delivered with diesel or container ship bunker oil. I rest my case!:wine1:
     
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  10. iabob

    iabob Well-Known Member

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    You sound kinda angry, you ok?
     
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  11. Rollin

    Rollin Well-Known Member

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    The miles to empty starts with a base program but it can learn. When you fuel up, the miles to empty is based on the data from the previous trips but makes changes based on new data. Speed, RPM, engine load and current fuel level. It can't see in the future but makes an estimate based on previous and current data.
     
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  12. Bikesofbrads

    Bikesofbrads Well-Known Member

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    If every1 would just ride motorcycles the pollution problem would b solved as they are already very efficient, plus parking & congestion with traffic would greatly decrease. E vehicles creating less pollution is a myth, they require the same energy to produce as regular vehicles do & so do their replacement parts. Then to charge them your still using fossil fuels, but in every1’s minds they think is making a difference & their saving the world when in reality nothing has changed. It has been proven if we’d not make another new car but just keep using the vehicles that already exists ( rebuilding, maintaining, conserving ) pollution would drastically diminish. A 1950 car running non stop for the next 50 years creates less pollution then building a new car does. Smoke n mirrors is an understatement.
     
  13. Texasbaehr

    Texasbaehr Well-Known Member

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    And if we went back to hunting our own food with stone tools and living in caves there would be no pollution! LOL
     
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  14. Bikesofbrads

    Bikesofbrads Well-Known Member

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    We’re only 1 good solar flare from it, hope ur keeping up on ur gardening, fishing & butchering skills. I am
     
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  15. benawhati

    benawhati Active Member

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    You mean like the hippies in their vans that spew oil and blow black smoke, but preach to save the environment? (I have no problem with hippies, or saving the environment)
     
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