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Thought I'd start the discussion:cool018:



Imagine Florida with a hurricane coming toward Miami. The Governor orders an evacuation. All cars head north. They all need to be charged in Jacksonville. How does that work? Has anyone thought about this? If all cars were electric, and were caught up in a three-hour traffic jam with dead batteries, then what? Not to mention that there is virtually no heating or air conditioning in an electric vehicle because of high battery consumption.



If you get stuck on the road all night, no battery, no heating, no windshield wipers, no radio, no GPS (all these drain the batteries), all you can do is try calling 911 to take women and children to safety. But they cannot come to help you because all roads are blocked, and they will probably require all police cars will be electric also.



When the roads become unblocked no one can move! Their batteries are dead.



How do you charge the thousands of cars in the traffic jam? Same problem during summer vacation departures with miles of traffic jams. There would be virtually no air conditioning in an electric vehicle. It would drain the batteries quickly.



Where is this electricity going to come from? Today's grid barely handles users' needs. Can't use nuclear, natural gas is running out. Oil fired is out of the question, then where?



What will be done with billions of dead batteries, can’t bury them in the soil, can’t go to landfills.



The CART IS WAY AHEAD OF THE HORSE. No thought whatsoever to handle any of the problems that batteries can cause.



The liberal press doesn't want to talk or report on any of this.



In France, thousands of taxis are now stored as inoperable because the batteries are dead and to replace them would cost more than the value of the vehicle itself!
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100,000 foot observation on EVs
20% of US power Generation is from renewables,
20% nuclear
60% Fossil fuels.
In most large metropolitan areas fossil fuel generation is much higher.
So, we burn fossil fuel to heat water and make steam to power a turbine connected to a generator to produce power. That power is transmitted over wires over long distances then transformed down to lower voltage for commercial, industrial and residential use. Power is run through a charger to charge an EV battery to power a vehicle. Every step in that process has mechanical, and thermal energy losses. The burning of the fuel to create the power produces greenhouse gases.
I’m a retired engineer, it just don’t make sense to me from an efficiency standpoint to convert our transportation system to EVs until we have substantially converted out power generation to renewables and or nuclear. Not to mention that our current power grid and municipal power transmission infrastructure cannot support this increase in load without hundreds of billions in investment that will take decades.
As a previous post appropriately said. “Cart before the horse”
We are rushing immature technology to commercialization into an environment that is not ready to support it.
 
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100,000 foot observation on EVs
20% of US power Generation is from renewables,
20% nuclear
60% Fossil fuels.
In most large metropolitan areas fossil fuel generation is much higher.
So, we burn fossil fuel to heat water and make steam to power a turbine connected to a generator to produce power. That power is transmitted over wires over long distances then transformed down to lower voltage for commercial, industrial and residential use. Power is run through a charger to charge an EV battery to power a vehicle. Every step in that process has mechanical, and thermal energy losses. The burning of the fuel to create the power produces greenhouse gases.
I'm a retired engineer, it just don't make sense to me from an efficiency standpoint to convert our transportation system to EVs until we have substantially converted out power generation to renewables and or nuclear. Not to mention that our current power grid and municipal power transmission infrastructure cannot support this increase in load without hundreds of billions in investment that will take decades.
As a previous post appropriately said. "Cart before the horse"
We are rushing immature technology to commercialization into an environment that is not ready to support it.
You're right, grids generally are designed for centralised generation and distributed consumption, but rooftop PV has massive penetration here, enough to be restricting the output of large scale solar farms, and at times resulting in a negative price for generated electricity. At times, coal fired power stations pay to keep exporting power to the grid, because it's cheaper than standing down turbines. Currently 30% of Oz houses have rooftop solar installed, and the installation rate is increasing. This puts the consumption right on the point of generation, eliminating the transmission loss, that can be 20% particularly in an extended grid like ours on the eastern side of Oz, apparently the world's largest, geographically.
Beefing up the grid is always worth doing, as South Australia learnt in Sept 2016, and Texas should have learnt last year.
 

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Right now, the eastern Oz power grid has 45% black coal input, 14% brown coal, 19% wind, 12% solar, but it is 16:30, well after peak insolation for the day. At a finer detail level, South Australia has the highest rate of rooftop PV, grid scale PV,and wind generation, and if you want to sell power to the grid in that state, you have to pay $35.95 per MWhr. The grid interconnector is pushing all it can into New South Wales, where it is currently selling at $70.20 per MWhr. Now it's getting closer to sundown, so they will be bringing the South Australian wind turbines on line progressively as the spot price rises. Figures from the Australian Energy Market Operators real time reporting website, which makes interesting reading for anyone interested in how power supply and demand is managed in a multiple supply situation.
 

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100,000 foot observation on EVs
20% of US power Generation is from renewables,
20% nuclear
60% Fossil fuels.
In most large metropolitan areas fossil fuel generation is much higher.
So, we burn fossil fuel to heat water and make steam to power a turbine connected to a generator to produce power. That power is transmitted over wires over long distances then transformed down to lower voltage for commercial, industrial and residential use. Power is run through a charger to charge an EV battery to power a vehicle. Every step in that process has mechanical, and thermal energy losses. The burning of the fuel to create the power produces greenhouse gases.
I'm a retired engineer, it just don't make sense to me from an efficiency standpoint to convert our transportation system to EVs until we have substantially converted out power generation to renewables and or nuclear. Not to mention that our current power grid and municipal power transmission infrastructure cannot support this increase in load without hundreds of billions in investment that will take decades.
As a previous post appropriately said. "Cart before the horse"
We are rushing immature technology to commercialization into an environment that is not ready to support it.
And over time, are you going to have more, or less fossil fuel powered electricity generation? All fossil fuel industry advocates will have you focussing on irrelevance. It's what the tobacco lobby did in the 80's and 90's- that tobacco causes lung cancer is irifutatble, so instead they just nibbled around the edges and made it about 'the man' attacking your freedoms Yada Yada Yada.

Even with coal generated electricity, the energy to the wheels of an EV is at least on par with petrol. You have to remember that you only get about 30% of the energy from petrol to the wheels. Most of the energy just disappears up the exhaust pipe as heat. I think it's something over 50% of coal energy use converted to electricity. An electric motor converts up to 90% electricity into motive power. Obviously though, there will be less coal power over time, and more nil carbon power.
 

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And over time, are you going to have more, or less fossil fuel powered electricity generation? All fossil fuel industry advocates will have you focussing on irrelevance. It's what the tobacco lobby did in the 80's and 90's- that tobacco causes lung cancer is irifutatble, so instead they just nibbled around the edges and made it about 'the man' attacking your freedoms Yada Yada Yada.

Even with coal generated electricity, the energy to the wheels of an EV is at least on par with petrol. You have to remember that you only get about 30% of the energy from petrol to the wheels. Most of the energy just disappears up the exhaust pipe as heat. I think it's something over 50% of coal energy use converted to electricity. An electric motor converts up to 90% electricity into motive power. Obviously though, there will be less coal power over time, and more nil carbon power.
OK, Good points. Modern ICE engines and better transmissions have improved auto efficiencies into the 35% range. The most efficient Fossil fueled power plant is combined cycle NG which has a thermal efficiency of about 65%, add transmission and distribution losses of 6%. Tesla claims a thermal efficiency of over 85% but many tests in actual driving conditions including charging and discharging losses showed closer to 72% or less. While conversion efficiency is high, there is also ise for A/C, Heat, lighting and electronics in an EV. So yes the real world efficiency overall is better but not by much. Coal is being used as swing plants in many areas now since its easier to do that with a coal fired unit than a large gas fired plant. Any new generation is Combined cycle HRSG. Nuclear plants have poor thermal efficiency at 35% but contribute no greenhouse gases. Although waste disposal for depleted fuel is a major issue. My biggest concern right now is lack of focus and funding to improve the power infrastructure to match the EV mandates currently in place. The EV market is moving much faster than the infrastructure can possibly keep up.
 

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Already rolling out in China is Ultra high DC lines. These seem to have been developed in China AND the US, probably independently. Once that's up, you can pretty much connect anything to anywhere. LA to NY, Perth to Sydney. You can have solar power in Sydney several hours after the sun goes down. Although obviously it ducks to be Perth
 

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Breaking news this week Fortescue Minerals, the 2nd largest iron ore miners in Oz, people seriously in the business of making money have bought two battery electric heavy haulage locomotives for their own 280 km ore railway, heaviest haul railway in the world, running 42 tonnes axle loads. It goes from their inland mine down to the port, so regenerative braking will help the 14.5 MWhr batteries, while the return run uphill will be running empty.
Fortescue say that they expect the locos to reduce operating costs, in fuel and maintenance.
They already have massive PV power supply at their isolated mine sites.
I was surprised to see that while the locos are not off the shelf items, plant this size never is, they are current production build to order, BB14.5BE units from Progress Rail, being built in South America for delivery in 2023.
 

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Yes. Like I say, all the conservative talk show hosts etc never cared one iota about tyre mountains burnng out of control, but now all of a sudden they care about how to dispose of batteries...
Truth is they don't care, they know it, we know it, they're just dumb enough to think their phony objections will negatively impact the free market. On the EV forums they're called FUDders. People who pretend to have objections and questions just as a pretense to spread Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. If they were honest men they would already know that these objections and questions have already been answered. But for all their blather and drivel, they can't handle living in a free society where people ar free to make different decisions than them.
 

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I have a boggling question. Most cars I notice sit in a parking lot open to the sun. Their work locations. Parked all day. Stores, shopping malls. Even many that street park or park in their driveways. Not specifically in a garage or under cover.

Anyway why don't battery cars have solar panels on them? Cost? Wouldn't it make sense?
Cost and efficiency. A car may be out in the sun all day, but very little of its curved - near horizontal surface will be directly facing the Sun light. Put the panels on a rooftop and they can be mounted towards the southern horizon and optimize the amount of sunlight. So you go to work and plug into solar powered chargers, or put a couple panels on your roof that charge a home based battery. Get home from work and transfer the electricity to the car, or use it as backup when the grid goes down, or take it with you for camping or mobile back up.

It's a cool concept to have the car recharge itself in the sun, but the economics justify other options for solar.
 

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Cost and efficiency. A car may be out in the sun all day, but very little of its curved - near horizontal surface will be directly facing the Sun light. Put the panels on a rooftop and they can be mounted towards the southern horizon and optimize the amount of sunlight. So you go to work and plug into solar powered chargers, or put a couple panels on your roof that charge a home based battery. Get home from work and transfer the electricity to the car, or use it as backup when the grid goes down, or take it with you for camping or mobile back up.

It's a cool concept to have the car recharge itself in the sun, but the economics justify other options for solar.
I was lucky enough to watch the start of the inaugural World Solar Car Challenge in 1988. General Motors won that year at an average speed of 66km/m. It was fascinating to see how different teams dealt with the problem of mounting solar to a car. Here's some pics

world solar car challenge 1988 - Google Search
 

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I was lucky enough to watch the start of the inaugural World Solar Car Challenge in 1988. General Motors won that year at an average speed of 66km/m. It was fascinating to see how different teams dealt with the problem of mounting solar to a car. Here's some pics

world solar car challenge 1988 - Google Search
I remember seeing a couple of entrants from a team at ISU, definitely cool stuff.

But a big difference between them and 5000 lb SUV's. A couple years ago we had a freaking hurricane sweep across Iowa. I had no idea such a thing was possible, but it was 3-1/2 days before my power was back on. At the time I regretted not having one of those quiet Honda generators, but a friend that had one couldn't get his started. Like me if I had one, his had been sitting in a box in his garage for years unused. I always wanted one, but just couldn't spend a couple grand for something that would sit for so long. I also recently replaced my roof. So I looked into solar power and a whole house battery. Basically go off grid getting near 100% from solar. But that system was pushing 25k. Just too much. But I did come across portable systems starting out around 3k and up. For 3k it has enough portable solar panels and battery to run the basics, fridge, tv, internet etc. But, not enough battery to add more than 5-10 miles of range if I plugged my car into it at night. BUT…I can add a secondary (or more) battery to that system and around 5-7k I'd have a system that can run pretty much everything but central air in a power outage, can add 20-25 miles of range per night to my car, and all or part of it can be taken on a camping trip or a worksite, wherever. OR…for 6 grand there is an aftermarket company promising a sleek panel that matches my car's roofline. Just going off the surface area of the pv panel, I estimate it adding 5-10 miles of range on the best sunniest day. As I see it the economics just aren't there. I get a lot more for my money getting a home based system that I can plug my car into overnight.
 

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Idk why we are going on and on about this….we just need a little plutonium and some gigawatts. Or a Mr. Fusion.

Motor vehicle Vehicle Car Travel Art
 

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That is a fascinating concept and I would like to see it happen as planned, and not some "lesser" version. There are undoubtedly some good ideas out there, but I get suspicious because, well, people have still proven to be themselves. Especially those who have something to gain and are willing to do so at the expense of others.

Side note. I can see the head lines. 100 solar powered cars stuck in tunnel. 500 sunlamps had to be deployed to get them moved out.
Sometimes I like to look at the funny side of things.
 

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I can see the head lines. 100 solar powered cars stuck in tunnel. 500 sunlamps had to be deployed to get them moved out.
Sometimes I like to look at the funny side of things.
Your my sunshine on a cloudy day & when my panels covered with snow
 
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That is a fascinating concept and I would like to see it happen as planned, and not some "lesser" version. There are undoubtedly some good ideas out there, but I get suspicious because, well, people have still proven to be themselves. Especially those who have something to gain and are willing to do so at the expense of others.

Side note. I can see the head lines. 100 solar powered cars stuck in tunnel. 500 sunlamps had to be deployed to get them moved out.
Sometimes I like to look at the funny side of things.
Agree. I love to read about what's being "developed"…but I'm not giving anybody my money for something that is yet to be produced and delivered. Seen some of these crowd funding projects actually come to market, but I've also seen them disappear with investor money totally lost.
 

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Agree. I love to read about what's being "developed"…but I'm not giving anybody my money for something that is yet to be produced and delivered. Seen some of these crowd funding projects actually come to market, but I've also seen them disappear with investor money totally lost.
We tow many that have died, hardly any charging stations up here..I'll stick with gas thank-you, less pollution then politicians flying all over.:cool018:...AND their HOT AIR
 
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