ELECTRIC TRANSPORTATION... | Page 3 | Victory Motorcycles: Motorcycle Forums

ELECTRIC TRANSPORTATION...

Discussion in 'Victory General Discussion' started by IM12STPN, Dec 24, 2021.

  1. Alonso_Ape

    Alonso_Ape Active Member

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    So all these mega rich corporations and individuals who are pushing new tech to try and reduce carbon emissions are socialist conspiracists? Say that it out load and tell me that doesn't sound paranoid...
     
  2. Flyboy

    Flyboy Well-Known Member

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    Oh quite contraire, I am referring to the Gooberment interference with those that have the latitude and finance to do. As you totally missed the point. It is the Industrial power house that will create the science and the fools at the DC Swamp-Rat Nest will only cause more issues as their greed overrides their knowledge base…

    Let Capitalism run with the better mousetrap approach continue minus the moral BS from ignorant politicians. You see the problem truly is population growth as it impacts the Planet and I have known that since 7th grade…
     
  3. BP6666VR

    BP6666VR Well-Known Member

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    I would LOVE to have a china made electric car (so i can fix it or soup it up), those Tesla's are just to complicated just to do arrons and school runs, but whatever you guys pay in the US or OZ for cars & motorcycles, we pay double of that .... 125-150 % tax
     
  4. Alonso_Ape

    Alonso_Ape Active Member

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    Oh I see. I don't totally disagree, but without some sort of guidance, corporations won't do anything they don't have to. They don't have a moral conscience. I read somewhere that if you took all the attributes of a corporation as if it were a single person, they always show as being a psychopath.
     
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  5. Flyboy

    Flyboy Well-Known Member

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    However, the behavior of the Government doesn’t bode any confidence at this time…
     
  6. Obi Steve

    Obi Steve Active Member

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    And will continue to generate, no matter what's turning the wheels. You can only use a few of them in a lifetime of resoling your boots.
     
  7. Alonso_Ape

    Alonso_Ape Active Member

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    Yes. Like I say, all the conservative talk show hosts etc never cared one iota about tyre mountains burnng out of control, but now all of a sudden they care about how to dispose of batteries...
     
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  8. Obi Steve

    Obi Steve Active Member

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    Went to a bush fire brigade call out once where a bloke had stabilised an embankment close to the front of his house by laying up hundreds of truck tyres and back filling them with dirt. We pumped the whole contents of his swimming pool mixed with all the foam we were carrying, then all the dishwashing and laundry detergent in the house onto it without putting it out. Managed to contain it within a burnt area and saved the house. It took him a couple of days work with a front end loader to slow it down appreciably but the ground was still hot and giving off poisonous smoke a week later.
    Like the coal seam in the Hunter Valley that's been burning for several thousand years, Burning Mountain.
    In my 20 years of solar powered off grid living, I always used old tech lead acid batteries, 95% recyclable, long lasting if sized right, I had 3 days reserve of power stored. In my last year at Obi, I only had to run the small backup generator at its monthly start up and check. (and the E10 fuel stayed useable in the tank all year).
    image5.jpg
    OK, lead acid batteries are not suitable for grid scale storage, but in Oz, if you can't live off grid in a stand alone dwelling with a modestly sized PV system, you either have a poorly designed and built house, or an insanely oversized one, or energy consumption habits like the chemical intake of a coke addict.
    In Oz, our power station operators, mostly not governments, are looking at retiring coal fired stations decades earlier than previously planned, for sound financial reasons, and building wind and solar farms with big batteries with big synchronous inverters for both storage and voltage and phase regulation.
    This year in spring, entire states were running on 100% renewable energy for part of the days, and solar overproduction is a problem.
    EVs on charge are being regarded as part of the supply stabilisation solution.
    @lou8700, your solar carport is a good idea, an EV, + PV panels over 30 square metres of your roof and you'll never buy juice again for a 1 hour commuting journey. Several times a year your power bill will be slightly higher. This is if you live in a humanly habitable part of the world, not real sure for you Canadians or upper Michigan residents. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2022
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  9. Alonso_Ape

    Alonso_Ape Active Member

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    Fully agree on lead acid for houses. Practically the whole battery is recyclable including the acid and weight and volume is not critical, AND they are a fraction of the cost of fancy batteries.


    Just in case some guys aren't familiar with it, this is what you can do with lead acid batteries

     
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  10. Obi Steve

    Obi Steve Active Member

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    What was it? A 70's Datsun at a guess?
    I shoulda kept my 71 Datsun 1 tonne ute for a bit longer and thought about a conversion
     
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  11. Texasbaehr

    Texasbaehr Well-Known Member

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    100,000 foot observation on EVs
    20% of US power Generation is from renewables,
    20% nuclear
    60% Fossil fuels.
    In most large metropolitan areas fossil fuel generation is much higher.
    So, we burn fossil fuel to heat water and make steam to power a turbine connected to a generator to produce power. That power is transmitted over wires over long distances then transformed down to lower voltage for commercial, industrial and residential use. Power is run through a charger to charge an EV battery to power a vehicle. Every step in that process has mechanical, and thermal energy losses. The burning of the fuel to create the power produces greenhouse gases.
    I’m a retired engineer, it just don’t make sense to me from an efficiency standpoint to convert our transportation system to EVs until we have substantially converted out power generation to renewables and or nuclear. Not to mention that our current power grid and municipal power transmission infrastructure cannot support this increase in load without hundreds of billions in investment that will take decades.
    As a previous post appropriately said. “Cart before the horse”
    We are rushing immature technology to commercialization into an environment that is not ready to support it.
     
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  12. Obi Steve

    Obi Steve Active Member

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    You're right, grids generally are designed for centralised generation and distributed consumption, but rooftop PV has massive penetration here, enough to be restricting the output of large scale solar farms, and at times resulting in a negative price for generated electricity. At times, coal fired power stations pay to keep exporting power to the grid, because it's cheaper than standing down turbines. Currently 30% of Oz houses have rooftop solar installed, and the installation rate is increasing. This puts the consumption right on the point of generation, eliminating the transmission loss, that can be 20% particularly in an extended grid like ours on the eastern side of Oz, apparently the world's largest, geographically.
    Beefing up the grid is always worth doing, as South Australia learnt in Sept 2016, and Texas should have learnt last year.
     
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  13. Obi Steve

    Obi Steve Active Member

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    Right now, the eastern Oz power grid has 45% black coal input, 14% brown coal, 19% wind, 12% solar, but it is 16:30, well after peak insolation for the day. At a finer detail level, South Australia has the highest rate of rooftop PV, grid scale PV,and wind generation, and if you want to sell power to the grid in that state, you have to pay $35.95 per MWhr. The grid interconnector is pushing all it can into New South Wales, where it is currently selling at $70.20 per MWhr. Now it's getting closer to sundown, so they will be bringing the South Australian wind turbines on line progressively as the spot price rises. Figures from the Australian Energy Market Operators real time reporting website, which makes interesting reading for anyone interested in how power supply and demand is managed in a multiple supply situation.
     
  14. Alonso_Ape

    Alonso_Ape Active Member

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    And over time, are you going to have more, or less fossil fuel powered electricity generation? All fossil fuel industry advocates will have you focussing on irrelevance. It's what the tobacco lobby did in the 80's and 90's- that tobacco causes lung cancer is irifutatble, so instead they just nibbled around the edges and made it about 'the man' attacking your freedoms Yada Yada Yada.

    Even with coal generated electricity, the energy to the wheels of an EV is at least on par with petrol. You have to remember that you only get about 30% of the energy from petrol to the wheels. Most of the energy just disappears up the exhaust pipe as heat. I think it's something over 50% of coal energy use converted to electricity. An electric motor converts up to 90% electricity into motive power. Obviously though, there will be less coal power over time, and more nil carbon power.
     
  15. Texasbaehr

    Texasbaehr Well-Known Member

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    OK, Good points. Modern ICE engines and better transmissions have improved auto efficiencies into the 35% range. The most efficient Fossil fueled power plant is combined cycle NG which has a thermal efficiency of about 65%, add transmission and distribution losses of 6%. Tesla claims a thermal efficiency of over 85% but many tests in actual driving conditions including charging and discharging losses showed closer to 72% or less. While conversion efficiency is high, there is also ise for A/C, Heat, lighting and electronics in an EV. So yes the real world efficiency overall is better but not by much. Coal is being used as swing plants in many areas now since its easier to do that with a coal fired unit than a large gas fired plant. Any new generation is Combined cycle HRSG. Nuclear plants have poor thermal efficiency at 35% but contribute no greenhouse gases. Although waste disposal for depleted fuel is a major issue. My biggest concern right now is lack of focus and funding to improve the power infrastructure to match the EV mandates currently in place. The EV market is moving much faster than the infrastructure can possibly keep up.
     
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