Dynojet Power Vision CX | Page 9 | Victory Motorcycles: Motorcycle Forums

Dynojet Power Vision CX

Discussion in 'Tech Q&A' started by mayday78, May 22, 2017.

  1. Chuckz71

    Chuckz71 Member

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    The reason I decided to go with PVCX, a couple years ago but then had twins so funds were diverted, was that I intend to slowly mod the motor, and would like to perform the tuning myself, therefore 'be done with it' won't work for my case. I have little bit of experience with HP Tuners with my truck. PVCX seems to have much more information available as resource to learn from; I'm not seeing that for the Maximus (but if you can direct me to a resource that shows Maximus screenshots please do). Also the PVCX can data log by itself (sans wideband, which I intend to get later), whereas I believe the Maximus needs to have the wideband unit installed to datalog (a huge cost at the time of buying the flasher). Since it doesn't seem financially practical to continually pay someone to keep modifying my tune everytime I put a part on, this again justifies my own tuning.
     
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  2. Chuckz71

    Chuckz71 Member

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    I'd be interested in buying one from a supplier's existing inventory. I could use a bit of help in determining the proper part or model number of the PVCX for the 2016 Freedom motor though, so that I can use that to help in my search. So far "Victory" with other DynoJet keywords results in Octane or Indian or Polaris PVCX units.
    Anyone be able to tell me the Dynojet model or part number? Or better yet, a seller who has one available?
     
  3. waterhog

    waterhog Well-Known Member

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    The SKU is PV-09002. Doing a cursory search, it may be that inventory at retail stores has depleted. I remember Witchdoctors and a couple of others carried them for around $300 a few months back.

    If you can't find one through a more thorough search, I would call Dynojet and ask if they know of any inventory. I got mine from FuelMoto but they seem to be out.

    Other possibilities include looking for a used one after double-checking with Dynojet that they can decouple the flash unit from an ECU it was married to. It's my understanding that they'll do it for a fee but not 100% sure.

    If all of the above fails, you may have to get a Maximus flash unit. Good luck.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2020
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  4. Chuckz71

    Chuckz71 Member

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    @waterhog, you are right on with the SKU. Did you do some ECM tuning yourself? Or maybe I'm remembering someone else.
    I also did a quick search online today and did not find any currently in stock. FuelMoto responded with that, they did a physical inventory search and have none in stock.

    I'm not opposed to the Maximus, but after a lot of reading on the comparisons between PVCX and Maximus, there were several things the PVCX provided (such as already available videos and trial software and no need to have wideband O2 installed to datalog) that influenced me to pursue the PVCX (albeit possibly too late).

    Dynojet responded today with this:
    "Thank you for contacting Dynojet Research. We appreciate your support and interest in our products.

    The CX is indeed discontinued and no longer made. We also did not update it to the PV3 platform since the bikes are no longer in new production.
    To obtain the old model, you'd be looking for the PV-09002 from a participating dealer - should they still have any on the shelf.
    The dual wideband kit is the WBCX-03. A cautionary note on the 106's - some of these models did not have keyed power populated in the diagnostic port instead only having constant power. This required users to add the pin, or move it to mate with the included cable connections, or install a switch.
    Under regular CX-only operation, the CX can accept constant power, but then has a built in sleep mode to turn off. Adding the Wideband unit will constantly heat the sensors resulting in battery drain if left connected. While not overly complicated should the modification be necessary, it's just worth noting. "
     
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  5. waterhog

    waterhog Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for sharing the info and your experience. I think it will be useful to folks in the future who consider using PVCX to flash tune their 106 Vics. I'm a bit surprised that inventory has already depleted but perhaps should not be given the small market of 106 Vics on the road.

    I do hope that folks who bought PVCX flash units but don't need them anymore (bike retired etc.) would create a used market so that others can benefit. With the fee Dynojet charges to reset/unmarry a flash unit (I haven't done it myself so this is not 100% accurate), perhaps a market value in the $150-200 range might make sense.

    Although PVCX as a hardware interface, for the reasons you mentioned (and there are threads about the particulars), is superior to Maximus and Dynojet's tuning software is more advanced, my thinking is that going the Maximus route since TechnoResearch is still selling them (someone claims they're still making them) makes sense.

    There is only one person I know of on VOG who has DIY tuned a Vic using Maximus, including smoothing of VE tables about which there was a discussion. It would be great for others to do the same and write about their experience. Anyhow, hope everything works out for you.
     
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  6. TwoManyXS1Bs

    TwoManyXS1Bs Well-Known Member

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    I also wanted to go with PVCX, same reasons as Chuckz71. But, sold out. Got a Maximus and TRO2 while they're still available.

    The Maximus claims to be able to do both on-road narrowband and wideband logging.
    When the software is installed, it goes into a "Technoresearch" directory in your programs directory.

    A snippet pic of the installed software directory.
    Technoresearch Directory.jpg

    It's loaded with many Victory maps, but only Base and Stage-1 maps.
    A snippet pic of one of the 2016 Victory maps directory.
    Technoresearch Directory Victory Maps.jpg

    Included is a "DirectLinkHelp.chm" file (about 12mb) that shows how to use the software, including the narrowband logging/tuning procedures.

    I have some other info in my Introduction thread.

    https://www.thevog.net/threads/texican-gets-a-vegas.160031/
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2020
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  7. TwoManyXS1Bs

    TwoManyXS1Bs Well-Known Member

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    Now, *that's* handy to know.
    I was planning to plug/unplug the thing as necessary, but adding a switch to power it only when ignition is "on" is much better...
     
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  8. waterhog

    waterhog Well-Known Member

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    Very informative. I did not know that narrowband logging has been added as a feature to Maximus. Craig Bennett has been using this methodology to remote tune some Victory bikes, but it seems mostly Indians. Overall with very positive responses by those who used his service. HD's basic autotune feature follows the same approach.

    Craig wrote a script so that using PVCX logs from street riding, Dynojet's software running the script updates VE tables based on computed estimates. This process is iterated until the tables converge. There is no guarantee that they should converge, but it seems in practice they do to an adequate level. Assuming TechnoResearch's DirectLink software has a built-in module that does the same, any DIY'er could calibrate the VE tables which is the most tricky part.

    I suspect that the resultant VE tables from Maximus narrowband street tuning are likely on par with street tuning with TRO2 wideband sensors. One will need to put a bike on a dyno in a controlled environment to squeeze the most out of wideband measurements.

    This feature, if readily usable, puts TechnoResearch's flash tuning platform at the same level as Dynojet's platform. Given that PVCX seem to be hard to find, Maximus appears to be the way to go for new Victory riders who want to DIY tune their bikes. Should be no more difficult than using PCV.
     
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  9. TwoManyXS1Bs

    TwoManyXS1Bs Well-Known Member

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    Here's a snippet from the Maximus help file describing data logging.

    Technoresearch AFR tuning help.jpg

    As I understand it, narrowband tuning requires more datalog runs.

    This short video shows the logfile being used to modify the maps (Automapping).

     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2020
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  10. waterhog

    waterhog Well-Known Member

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    Your follow-ups have been some of the most informative regarding Maximus for tuning our 106 Victory bikes.

    Assuming the narrowband tuning feature works for 106 bikes, this would allow a Vic rider after exhaust/intake/engine mods to purchase a Maximus flash unit (seems to a tad over $300), download the free DirectLink software, do a street run to get logs from stock narrowband O2 measurements, upload the log and let DirectLink make VE table updates, and repeat the process several times until VE table values converge.

    Then set timing advancement. That's not any different than what folks have been doing with the Llyodz timing wheel. But easier and more control since it's not limited to > 2500 RPM range, timing advance is customizable at every RPM (if so desired), and done in software so that there is no need make physical adjustments.

    Then set target AFR tables to enrich as desired. Performance oriented means closer to 3.0, fuel economy closer to 4.0.

    Timing advancement and target AFR has to be done in combination to make adjustments to prevent engine knock and verify that the bike is running at the desired AFR across a broad RPM range. After street tuning, this is best confirmed by doing a couple of pulls with a wideband sensor on a dyno which will cost around $50-100 depending on where one lives.

    Smoothing of VE tables is an optimization step.

    IDLE tuning can be a headache.

    So there is still value to be gained by having a pro do it remotely.

    Otherwise, spending around $350 should suffice to get a well-running Vic. It seems Maximus is well-suited for DIY tuning of Victory bikes. Having a VOG member actually go through the process and report on the process and outcome would be very useful and informative.

    Of course, street tuning, done with a pro's help remotely or not, is inherently dangerous due to potential distractions. Tuning the bike on a dyno with wideband sensors by a pro is still the gold standard. When that's not an option, narrowband tuning a 106 Vic using Maximus seems to be a viable option to consider.
     
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  11. Chuckz71

    Chuckz71 Member

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    Apologies on a delayed follow up. Which ever system I do go with, DynoJet's Power Vision CX (PV-09002) and Dual wideband kit (WBCX-03) or TecnoResearch's Maximus Maximus flash tuner (TR4-002-033 for Victory) and corresponding dual Wideband O2 system (TRO2-002-001), I intend to document and share my experiences. (I post the flasher systems above to assist others in their DIY pursuits, should they choose to take on the risk instead of paying an experienced tuner to provider their experienced services)

    @waterhog your posting has been quite valuable to me in trying to determine what the PVCX can do. And @TwoManyXS1Bs, your recent postings on Maximus are the same!

    So here's the rest of my conversation over the past few days with DynoJet (edited for brevity), in regards to Victory and PVCX . In my opinion, DynoJet has been very responsive and pretty helpful.

    Me: "If I was able to find a PVCX for the 106, do you suspect I may run into issues of the DynoJet tuning software (Power Core C3 ?) not longer being compatible with the PVCX?"
    Dynojet: "The PVCX is still a rather "new" product from us and it will continue to be supported by all iterations of our Software enabling you to tune with C3."
    Me: "Would you be able to tell me if the Power Vision CX is able to change any speedometer error, such as with a front pulley diameter change or change in tire diameters?"
    Dynojet: "The Visteon ECU found on the Victory does not have the speed scalar exposed as an alterable field - and it may not even be present instead driven direct to the factory gauge."
    Me: "May I ask about modifying the gear indication, which I believe is tied with the engine RPM and clutch lever discrete, and possibly wheel speed (speed via hall effect sensor output of transmission). Can the gear indication be adjusted by PV CX?"
    Dynojet: "The PowerCore software paired with the PVCX has access to countless tuning tables adaptive learning, Alpha N fueling, idle target, rev limit, MAP Sensor cal, ignition timing, and speed density fueling. It does not expose speed scalar/gear indication/etc."

    I am quite disappointed that speedo and gear indications can't be adjusted. I was able to do that with HP Tuners on my truck when I changed the gearing and tire size. I currently have Michelin Commander II 180/65B16 rear tire (~8% diff in circumference from stock) which has my speedo showing about a bit under my actual mph at 70 (GPS) , and I intend on changing the front pulley later).
     
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  12. Chuckz71

    Chuckz71 Member

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    When I was asking FuelMoto if they had any PV CX's (and they didn't), I also inquired if they would still perform their remote tuning service with a PV CX (of course paying for their services), and they responded that they still would.
     
  13. Chuckz71

    Chuckz71 Member

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    I'm my research to determine the ECM flashing system for me, I also sent an email to TechnoResearch. I also intend to post this in a 'Maximus' thread so others may find it easier, but since it's related to my inquiry on the PVCX, I'll post it here so others may also learn with me.

    Here's (most of) my conversation with them.

    Me: "There doesn't seem to be much literature out there about the Maximus.
    If I only purchase the Maximus, is that sufficient to data log using the factory narrow band Lambda sensors? What connection is used to get the data logs off the Maximus? (E.g., USB to USB, I think I read Bluetooth so the PC will need a bluetooth ability as well?, or can I pull the data using my iPhone 6s?)
    Does the Maximus come with software to assist with tuning? (i.e., there are algorithms to assist with determining the changes to make?) Does this PC that may have this software need to be physically connected to the Maximus while data logs are being reviewed or changes the various tables are being made?
    Does a Wideband O2 system get "married" to a Maximus unit or bike, like the Maximus is locked to an ECU?
    Are there tutorials to help one get quickly acquainted with the Maximus software? Or other material?"


    TechnoResearch: "It is not possible to tune with the maximus using the stock sensors on a Victory. I really don’t even recommend it on Harleys either. Narrowband sensors are… inadequate.
    Maximus hooks to the Windows PC via USB (to USB). Bluetooth was removed from the Victory Maximus a little while ago.
    The Wideband o2 does not lock to the bike. It’s most commonly used in a shop environment to tune many bikes. The tuning software is called Direct Link. If wideband o2s and the maximus are used to record data, the Direct Link software has a feature called automapping. It will use algorithms to calculate front and rear fuel changes.
    Flight recording is started with a PC and ended at the PC, but the PC does NOT come for the ride.
    The PC must be connected to the maximus and the maximus to the bike to program changes to the motorcycle.
    The main manual for Direct Link is here:
    Direct Link Flash Tuner
    The oddity is that Victory just has… less… than the Harley. For instance, Direct Link does not backup the original mapping on a Victory and instead offers a stock map and a stage 1.
    [.....]
    I also recommend talking to Lloyds and/or 801 motorworx."

    I'm curious as to why TechnoResearch referred to "Flight recording".... My profession as of a few years ago was a Flight Test Engineer, and so am quite familiar with data recorders on aircraft. This makes me think whoever responded may have come from that type of work, or currently still supports such.
    I do find it odd that some folks (more Power Vision) say that lambda (narrow band O2) sensors can be used to tune with. My understanding of Lambda sensors is that they are quite accurate at stoich (14.7) or whatever they are designed for, but have very limited ability to accurately provide air/fuel ratio very far off either side of lambda. I suspect this is why TechnoResearch indicated it's not possible to tune with the stock sensors.
    I've also heard that HD (and Indian) have more editable parameters than the '08 thru '17 Victory's, so TechnoResearch's response seems to support that.
     
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  14. MRMAXX

    MRMAXX Well-Known Member

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    WoW...while you are fu cking around with all this crap...I'm out riding my bike with a good old PC5....Tuned to 140/140

    Does the Maximus have the capabilities to holding 2 separate maps?

    Does the Maximus have the ability to add a power shifter?

    Does the Maximus have Launch control?

    PC5 does...just saying
     
  15. waterhog

    waterhog Well-Known Member

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