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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
This is a blog for the more technically minded. Written by Craig Bennett, it provides an overview of fuel injection tuning and an explanation of the ins and outs of narrow and wide band tuning using the Dynojet PVCX.

Although it is written with the PVCX in mind, those interested in the tuning process using Maximus will likely learn from this.

This information has hitherto been very difficult to find, as anyone digging for information will attest. This is gold for the DIYer, and for those who wish to look past the repetitive uninformed noise about the subject on social media.

Victory Motorcycle Tuning
 

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Looks interesting. I bookmarked it for a read later. Thanks for posting it.
 

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This is a blog for the more technically minded. Written by Craig Bennett, it provides an overview of fuel injection tuning and an explanation of the ins and outs of narrow and wide band tuning using the Dynojet PVCX.

Although it is written with the PVCX in mind, those interested in the tuning process using Maximus will likely learn from this.

This information has hitherto been very difficult to find, as anyone digging for information will attest. This is gold for the DIYer, and for those who wish to look past the repetitive uninformed noise about the subject on social media.

Victory Motorcycle Tuning
Great resource for folks thinking about flash tuning their '08 or later Vics. One of the reasons I chose PVCX over Maximus when DIY tuning my Vegas.

Below are some qualifiers for context:

1. Nothing beats dyno tuning by one of the Vic pros. If you're close by, it's the best option.

2. Remote tuning using wideband sensors will yield better tunes than narrowband tuning. There is no free lunch. Whether the improved tune is worth it to you is another question. Read related posts on VOG and elsewhere, and determine what is best for you.

3. Motorcycle tuning is more than VE table calibration which is what Craig Bennett's blog discusses. That includes spark timing calibration, decel and idle tuning, etc. Much of your torque and HP comes from optimizing spark timing which cannot be effectively done remotely. That's one of the reasons for dyno tuning if possible.

4. If you're familiar with Dynojet's Autotune (TechnoResearch also provides a similar feature), remote tuning using Vic's stock narrowband O2 sensors roughly corresponds to Autotune Basic. Remote tuning using wideband O2 sensors corresponds to Autotune Pro. Instead of automated software doing everything, you are receiving expert human help.

5. Both Bennett and 801 Motoworx seem to be tuning experts with stellar reputation for customer service. My local Indian dealer charges $120/hr for labor. What Bennett and 801 Motoworx charge for their tuning service is a steal IMO.

Bottom line: With remote tuning, wideband or narrowband, you may not get optimized tunes achievable with dyno tuning. But chances are you will get a good enough tune for everyday street riding which may be enough. If not, go the dyno route.
 

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Great resource for folks thinking about flash tuning their '08 or later Vics. One of the reasons I chose PVCX over Maximus when DIY tuning my Vegas.

Below are some qualifiers for context:

1. Nothing beats dyno tuning by one of the Vic pros. If you're close by, it's the best option.

2. Remote tuning using wideband sensors will yield better tunes than narrowband tuning. There is no free lunch. Whether the improved tune is worth it to you is another question. Read related posts on VOG and elsewhere, and determine what is best for you.

3. Motorcycle tuning is more than VE table calibration which is what Craig Bennett's blog discusses. That includes spark timing calibration, decel and idle tuning, etc. Much of your torque and HP comes from optimizing spark timing which cannot be effectively done remotely. That's one of the reasons for dyno tuning if possible.

4. If you're familiar with Dynojet's Autotune (TechnoResearch also provides a similar feature), remote tuning using Vic's stock narrowband O2 sensors roughly corresponds to Autotune Basic. Remote tuning using wideband O2 sensors corresponds to Autotune Pro. Instead of automated software doing everything, you are receiving expert human help.

5. Both Bennett and 801 Motoworx seem to be tuning experts with stellar reputation for customer service. My local Indian dealer charges $120/hr for labor. What Bennett and 801 Motoworx charge for their tuning service is a steal IMO.

Bottom line: With remote tuning, wideband or narrowband, you may not get optimized tunes achievable with dyno tuning. But chances are you will get a good enough tune for everyday street riding which may be enough. If not, go the dyno route.
Just so I'm clear here. What you are saying in paragraph 1 is that a remote tune can not compare to a dyno tune? I'm pretty sure that myth had already been busted.

In paragraph 3, if you only adjust timing, you'll gain torque and HP and AFR has little to do with performance? Also, you say that spark timing can not be ajusted correctly or effectively remotely? By your reasoning, who on earth would ever want anyone to tune remotely and how are remotely tuned bikes producing just as much power of not more than a dump bike? Tuners look at numbers and that's what matters. Whether you see the numbers remotely via internet programming or in a dump booth, it is the same process for adjusting numbers.

You're projecting a misconception on your part in paragraph 4 regarding remote tuning with narrowband sensors. I say this because I infer that you are talking about Maximus remote tuning which is only done with wideband sensors and a wideband processor. You are correct that wideband tuning is far superior to narrowband because a wideband sensor gives actual AFR readings allowing for effective adjustments. Narrowband sensors are only effective at idle and cruise (fixed load) conditions anyway so, if anyone is remote tuning using narrowband sensors, they are telling a lie and probably only pushing a canned tune remotely.

In your summation your assumption is, again, that dyno tuning is superior to remote tuning and I simply have to ask...how? If anything, a remote tune using real world data capturing during ride sessions gives actual accurate real world data used to tune far more AFR and timing points to give a much more complete tune.

Debate, not attack...lets discuss.
 

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My recent tune I watched as the tuner gave it timing ran it, gave it more ran it until the timing hurt performance then re-adjusted. I would have to think that would be hard or next to impossible to do remotely unless you want to go through it a dozen times at each throttle position.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Just so I'm clear here. What you are saying in paragraph 1 is that a remote tune can not compare to a dyno tune? I'm pretty sure that myth had already been busted.

In paragraph 3, if you only adjust timing, you'll gain torque and HP and AFR has little to do with performance? Also, you say that spark timing can not be ajusted correctly or effectively remotely? By your reasoning, who on earth would ever want anyone to tune remotely and how are remotely tuned bikes producing just as much power of not more than a dump bike? Tuners look at numbers and that's what matters. Whether you see the numbers remotely via internet programming or in a dump booth, it is the same process for adjusting numbers.

You're projecting a misconception on your part in paragraph 4 regarding remote tuning with narrowband sensors. I say this because I infer that you are talking about Maximus remote tuning which is only done with wideband sensors and a wideband processor. You are correct that wideband tuning is far superior to narrowband because a wideband sensor gives actual AFR readings allowing for effective adjustments. Narrowband sensors are only effective at idle and cruise (fixed load) conditions anyway so, if anyone is remote tuning using narrowband sensors, they are telling a lie and probably only pushing a canned tune remotely.

In your summation your assumption is, again, that dyno tuning is superior to remote tuning and I simply have to ask...how? If anything, a remote tune using real world data capturing during ride sessions gives actual accurate real world data used to tune far more AFR and timing points to give a much more complete tune.

Debate, not attack...lets discuss.
Dynamometer with either a cylinder pressure sensor and/or finding the max torque value at the RPM and Map are the only safe way to build a timing table. With remote tuning, the timing can only really be set to known safe values.

On my bike, we have found that the timing is quite advanced at >4000rpm. We have had to progressively reduce it by half degrees until the pinging disappears. Just last week, we found it to be still a bit too advanced after a heavily loaded run up a steep hill.

Your average remote tune cannot do this over 3 or 4 runs. My guess is that the guys doing it set the timing conservatively.

Remote tuning is very good. But it is not as good as a competent tuner using a dyno. I should point out that the remote tunes are pretty close especially in adjusting fuel tables, but by nature are difficult to get perfect, compromises are made.

In regards wideband versus narrowband, it is probably best explained here: Victory Motorcycle Tuning: Narrowband O2 Sensors & Tuning Strategy
 

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I wonder what the effect of timing is on performance as it relates to AFR readings leaving the cylinder and being read with a wide band processor system.

Additionally, I wonder if it is possible to have competent timing tables and predictive value for remote tuning after 19 yrs of dyno tuning.

Can I adjust timing based on sensor readings and be far more efficient than a dyno pull number?

Remote tunes are not designed for dull throttle max power tuning although you get some of that too.

I will give you this....dyno machines are a great way to VERIFY regardless of how it was tuned. But, considering the top two names in tuning currently are collaborating and finding that one's remote tunes are not taking a back seat to another's dyno tune...fact.
 

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What I find interesting is why this is still being done by hand? If you have a set of tables (basically a spreadsheet) and you have a predetermined result, why isn't the whole thing done with algorithms that would automatically adjust the settings? Granted there are slightly different results that you may want at a given throttle point for better economy or better power or whatever, but that's just a slight change in the algorithms used. Seems to me a halfway decent programmer could set this up so that you should be able to hook up the sensors, run it on the dyno a few times and pull away in minutes with a perfect tune.
 

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I have found 7 tuners with dynojet dynos near me. (Very few other dyno brands here in Calgary. Population of city alone 1 mil plus) Based on what I've read/heard, only one shop promotes direct to ecu tuning and its only for a few select sport bikes. They are considered to be a "race bike shop". The rest seem to want to sell you a piggyback device.

I agree with you on the idea of preset tables and such. My guess is most shops would rather start from scratch to get as much money from you for using the expensive dyno they have to pay for. This race shop I talk about charges 120 for 1 dyno pull. Gives you hp & rear wheel speed (no torque?). In the spring they offer a one day event where I believe its 60 bucks. I bet they slam the bikes through that day. Its by appt so... to get your a/f ratio added in its another 75 for a pull so 195. Full dyno runs and tuning starts at 500 around these parts it seems. Time, specialized equipment, yadada. I think everyone in the business likes that minimum price point for dyno service

When I get my pv cx, I'll pick a map to match a lloydz filter and slip on muffler option. I think dynojet has 3 right now that I could try. Hoping FuelMoto has a couple as well. If I have 5 different maps to choose from I'm fairly confident I'll find one that's good enough. And next spring I'll get myself a 60 dollar dyno for fun. Good enough for me...I hope:)
 

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What I find interesting is why this is still being done by hand? If you have a set of tables (basically a spreadsheet) and you have a predetermined result, why isn't the whole thing done with algorithms that would automatically adjust the settings? Granted there are slightly different results that you may want at a given throttle point for better economy or better power or whatever, but that's just a slight change in the algorithms used. Seems to me a halfway decent programmer could set this up so that you should be able to hook up the sensors, run it on the dyno a few times and pull away in minutes with a perfect tune.
Have you any experience with the Maximus remote tune? Essentially, this is where we are with that program and process.

Well...not automatically but, yea...its amazingly simple once you learn it.

The cost of the program and dyno equipment is what keeps many folks from moving to a new technology. Not to mention, learning curve involved. Let's not even talk about the "culture shift". It's like brand loyalty.

Someone never knows what they don't know until they are shown.
 

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ECU tuning costs what it does because they can charge that much for it.... because it's roughly in line with the cost of a piggy back tune. The actual cost is just in the hardware needed to do the tuning.. so it could be as cheap as a few bucks if they wanted.. the Maximus tune system is LOCKED to prevent it from being used on multiple machines. It'd be like Microsoft charging for a windows update and locking it to your one pc to force you to buy it over and over again. I used to work in a lab where we flashed EEproms for devices that did tape backups.. and we charged astronomical amounts of money for each feature that the devices did.. what the customers didn't know was that the device they had already bought could be enabled to do all the features by either a flash or a keypress combination.. the ability was in all of our devices.. you just didn't get to use them unless you paid one hell of a lot of money to turn it on.
i thought a lot about trying to hack my ECU a while back.. saw someone else was doing it and figured at some point we'd be able to just download it as easy as a pdf and do our own. That might still happen someday.. but for now we have to pay 500 bucks or whatever for something that should cost next to nothing.
 

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...
In your summation your assumption is, again, that dyno tuning is superior to remote tuning and I simply have to ask...how? If anything, a remote tune using real world data capturing during ride sessions gives actual accurate real world data used to tune far more AFR and timing points to give a much more complete tune.

Debate, not attack...lets discuss.
Corleone: just when the tuning discussion on VOG had greatly increased in information content in recent weeks, we're being pulled back in...
 

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What I find interesting is why this is still being done by hand? If you have a set of tables (basically a spreadsheet) and you have a predetermined result, why isn't the whole thing done with algorithms that would automatically adjust the settings? Granted there are slightly different results that you may want at a given throttle point for better economy or better power or whatever, but that's just a slight change in the algorithms used. Seems to me a halfway decent programmer could set this up so that you should be able to hook up the sensors, run it on the dyno a few times and pull away in minutes with a perfect tune.
Actually the trend has been toward automation. As an example, in the case of Power Vision for HD, the flasher has additional capabilities including automated VE table tuning. Roughly, Autotune Basic (software) corresponds to what Craig Bennett does for our Vics using stock O2 sensors. Roughly, Autotune Pro is what 801 Motoworx provides with the help of wideband sensors. I would not be surprised if Dynojet (or TechnoResearch which has similar automated software) decided to add these features to PVCX in later releases. As you noted, the algorithms for VE table tuning are very simple.
 

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ECU tuning costs what it does because they can charge that much for it.... because it's roughly in line with the cost of a piggy back tune. The actual cost is just in the hardware needed to do the tuning.. so it could be as cheap as a few bucks if they wanted.. the Maximus tune system is LOCKED to prevent it from being used on multiple machines. It'd be like Microsoft charging for a windows update and locking it to your one pc to force you to buy it over and over again. I used to work in a lab where we flashed EEproms for devices that did tape backups.. and we charged astronomical amounts of money for each feature that the devices did.. what the customers didn't know was that the device they had already bought could be enabled to do all the features by either a flash or a keypress combination.. the ability was in all of our devices.. you just didn't get to use them unless you paid one hell of a lot of money to turn it on.
i thought a lot about trying to hack my ECU a while back.. saw someone else was doing it and figured at some point we'd be able to just download it as easy as a pdf and do our own. That might still happen someday.. but for now we have to pay 500 bucks or whatever for something that should cost next to nothing.
The tension between intellectual property rights (provider) and intrusion into private property rights (customer) is as old as computing itself. In one instance, farmers are fighting back using good old fashioned American ingenuity:

 
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