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And so it Begins

8K views 78 replies 33 participants last post by  SemperVee 
#1 ·
We just got word locally that 2 HD dealerships in our area are closing. I’ve been saying for a few years now, they don’t have the sales to support a company this size. What gets me is the one is holding it’s own but with the HD franchise deal they can come in at anytime and say sorry your out. All the blood sweat and tears you put into something you love and BAM your out. That’s some Bull$hit ! Anyways I believe a lot more of this will come in the next year. Over 700 dealers in the US and the regrouping for survival I believe is coming with a major downsizing for survival. Time will tell they are hurting money wise pretty bad. Over 4 years of sales continually dropping hard. I know this is not an HD site but I thought being as it’s a major part of the motorcycle world I’d just toss it out there. 700 workers layed off so far this year and another plant closed overseas due to lack of sales last week. Getting a little scary for them
 
#2 ·
Too many dealers as it is. Trying to sell something most don't want. Bikes are hard to sell even without a pandemic.
 
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#3 ·
I've been expecting it for some time. Unlike a lot of Vic owners I want HD to succeed. I want to see American V-Twin manufactures in general succeed... that's a type of bike I enjoy riding. I want to see healthy competition in the V-twin and touring market. Unfortunately, I think there's less and less riders every year that are willing to drop 25-40K on a motorcycle. I like them, but with the abundance of used bikes I can't fault anyone for that... there's just relatively no incentive to paying that kind of money for a bike when you can grab such deals for 5-10K. Couple that with less and less people entering the sport/hobby and you have dealerships struggling.
 
#13 · (Edited)
I don't think Victory Owners want HD to fail, alot of us have owned HD and I would now if the Victory wasn't a much better value. That said, they aren't worth the coin they are asking...

My observation, they built too many Bikes and a rider doesn't buy them like a car and yet they priced like cars...
 
#4 ·
Yep. Bikes last a long time and even at a dealer you'll walk away with a much better deal used than new. At least you should. Had some guy being annoying when I rode my bike somewhere. He was going on and on about how he had an awesome deal on a used bike $35k out the door. I really don't know what to say to that. My uncle loves his HD and so do others in my family and they paid nothing close to that. Good bikes he rides more than I do.

Lot of dealers closed and not just HD. The market has been shrinking every year. Less and less people want to ride. Just a fact. Everyone in my family rides and I started late but I don't plan to give it up.
 
#5 ·
Within a 100 radius of Houston we have 11 Large Harley Davidson Dealers!
There are 20 in the whole state. All around Houston , Dallas Austin and San Antonio areas.
Even with the population of over 9 million in the Radius around Houston there is no way they can all survive considering the ongoing decline in motorcycle sales.
HD base is declining faster than other brands base and they have made many ill fated attempts to appeal to a younger market. The Live Wire electric bike is a flop after sucking up 10's of Millions of HD resources. At least Indian aka Polaris realized the nostalgia market was limited and now offer s modern looking machines. Harley tried with the V-Rod which was a great bike (I had one) but it had its issues which they never really addressed and they spent very little marketing it or massaging it to appeal and compete with the Asian bike market. There are lots of other issues with the HD brand , too many to go into but the bottom line is they spent too much marketing their Brand to their existing base and are paying the price.
I hope they can survive, it's a great American Brand and a survivor. I f they did go under they would get scooped up by another company that could hopefully revive it and breath some new life into the brand. The name and the brand are too valuable to fade into history.
 
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#10 ·
Well the only time this new upcoming generation is interested in riding a bike is if it’s in a video game. It sucks but it’s a fact of life nowadays. My 3 sons ride but probably because it was in their face since they were baby’s. This helps nothing for motorcycling the way kids are today. Harley screwed up by constantly relying on the customer loyalty that served them so well for decades. Especially when your the only American iron game in town. Guilty right here for decades I would only ride American iron. Lol yeah caught in the HD plus club life trap. But it’s a different day and they are realizing it. Hopefully not to late
 
#12 ·
Harley’s in deep sh!t after canning Levitich and installing a new CEO that wants to abandon new growing segments to focus on their “core” business, you know thenpart that isn’t growing. Genious. At the rate their sales are declining they don’t have much time left before revenue is less than debt payments. At which point Polaris buys the brand in bankruptcy court and bails on Indian.
 
#16 ·
... At which point Polaris buys the brand in bankruptcy court and bails on Indian.
Wow, could you imagine if that actually came to be? Right now I do not believe that HD would ever sell itself to the direct competitor. With that said, I can't say that I had ever imagined what a pandemic with a 99.9+% survival rate would do either.

I suppose anything is possible...
 
#14 ·
What American wants an American company to fail??? We’d all b @ that dudes house with R pitchforks & lanterns. We just want our reliable, easy 2 maintain, reasonably priced V twins not 2 cost 1/2 the price of a house to buy 1 new. & maybe some good bbq, cold drinks, lil $ & lots of tang b4 bed & we’re good
 
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#15 ·
Absolutely don't want any bike company to fail. We need competition to keep innovating and evolving.
Something HD has refused to do forever but now they are trying to play catch up. Tighter and tighter emissions standards and such will force them to change. I would never buy an air cooled HD even though I have family that loves them they run hot. Probably hotter than my Vic which I know can get toasty. Liquid cooled with that classic sound, put it in a better looking package with more storage space. Then it might appeal to me, oh wait that's what Indian is going to do first. HD playing catch up while sitting on a massive amount of inventory they can't sell. I read on one of the business websites last year that every big bagger HD makes is sold for over 50% profit. They refuse to compromise on that got to pay those shareholders so bike prices keep going up up up.
 
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#19 ·
MAYBE if HD was taught to spell....REBATE and DISCOUNT...EVEN "ON SALE". When I bought my 2014 CC 8-BALL the scene was:
JULY 2014: $19,900 MINUS $2500 REBATE (being an impulse buyer they almost had me BUT before buying a bike my wife needs to sit on it to for "comfy" check. She loved the 8-BALL, tried a CCT but didn't like the confinement feeling of trunk).

OCTOBER 2014: FUNDS and WIFE IN HAND...$19,900 MINUS NOW A $5000 REBATE PLUS VETERANS DISCOUNT OF $1000

Rode away @ $14,900 OTD:dance:

TRUE story...I went to HD dealer with HD buddy, to get a part of course, and did see one I liked, salesMAN came up and asked if he could help me. Told him I needed a salesGIRL...he asked why...I said "Lost ALL my WRINKLES when saw/sat on bike...BUT looked at price and now "SCARED TURTLE" look....he didn't think funny...:doh:

END of STORY: Rode off on my VEGAS 8-BALL (leaving a tell-tale BLACK stripe in parking lot:crackup::crackup:

Nose Smile Eye Human body Jaw
 
#24 ·
With H-D being a publicly traded company I’d guess whoever bought enough shares could control the company. Without actually ’buying’ the company. Then again, an outright purchase could be the better option. Especially if H-D were looking for a suitor.

An Indian company (not Polaris Indian) or a Chinese company would be the most likely due the money needed. IMHO, either of those options would ruin much of H-D’s market value.

I suspect what we’ll mostly see from H-D over the next year is more downsizing (rightsizing) of their manufacturing facilities, employee count and dealerships. As has been stated, the H-D network cannot be supported by their sales trends.
 
#25 ·
My experience with Harley I have owned 6 or 7 all used but I have tried to buy a new one a couple of times but their sales process sucks. The experience I have had was bad at every dealership, being in my business clothes I could not get anyone to wait on me they just huddled in a group and ignored me.They pissed me off so bad I drove to the BMW motorcycle dealership and bought a K1200LTC. I tried again several years later different owners and they waited on me but would not give me a out the door price just wanted to pull my credit and talk payments. I went to the Honda dealer bought a new F6b, tried again told them my experience just ignored me so went and bought a Chieftain. I buy a lot of bikes but I enjoy them very much so I have given up on Harley’s unless I buy a used one from the owner or I have gotten good deals on them from car dealerships. I have owned this year a Victory Cross Roads Classic,Honda F6b,2-Kawasaki ZRX’s and now a Cross CountryTour we will leave the dirt bikes out. I was looking to buy a Indian Roadmaster but the best value by far right now is used Victory’s. I cannot see myself walking into a Harley dealership again and I am their target market, I hope they make it because I like their bikes just hate their sales process.
 
#26 ·
I honestly have no idea what Indian sales are doing right now. I have been so busy that I have not spoken to my dealer in quite a while. Their pricing is pretty similar to Harley so I wonder how many units they are moving at $30,000 and up a pop at this time?

I thought I would never own a Harley because I could not afford one. At least the ones I would actually want. All these years later, they are further away than ever. Harley-Davidson is going to have to wake up and face the facts that their product no longer commands the price it once did in a market that is shrinking. If they don't start dropping prices the slide will continue. They actually have no choice at this point than to shrink their footprint. That footprint will get smaller yet.
 
#28 ·
Just about tha dollar dollar bills yo
 
#30 ·
Hasn't it been some time now that the younger folks are getting into motorcycles less and the older ones are aging out of the biker world?

I think shrinking sales would be inevitable. Except for the little bikes for economy, I think they keep selling. When a young person can buy a sub-compact car for thousands less than a motorcycle, they are opting for the AC, weather protection, stereo, and 12 month no matter the weather for comfort.
 
#31 ·
Yup that has been the case for a long time. Started around 2000 and sales have been trending down for all brands every year. Doesn't help we have had multiple economic recessions, high inflation, and wages are basically same for most the middle class.
 
#33 ·
I would like to correct a few statements here. From 2000-2008 Harley was doing very well, and so was Victory. 2008-2013 Victory was doing VERY well, Harley was OK. It's been about the last five years that Harley has been declining and Polaris has gone flat. Where Indian is now is much less than the growth trajectory Victory was on 2009-2013. That's just the American brands. European and Japanese brands have been doing well to very well, right up to 2020. BMW, Ducati, Triumph, KTM, and the Japanese brands...they've been setting new sales records every year, up to and not sure about 2020. If you're reading reports of a flat market for motorcycles in N America...it's because 1/2 of the market is down and the other 1/2 is up. Put together it's flat.

A couple other points, inflation has been historically low for years now, and real (purchasing power) income for the middle class has fallen. As low as inflation's been, it's still rising faster than wages so working Americans are able to buy less.

So, what we have seen in the motorcycle market is bikes like the Grom, Bonneville, 800cc Duke, etc....very non big heavy American cruiser type bikes selling very well. The kind of bikes the former CEO of Harley was trying to get them into. What's selling even better than those motorcycles...ebikes. Stop in a bicycle retailer and ask them. Sold out and back ordered at the manufacturer, they can't make them fast enough. And they aren't cheap! This was another area Harley was exploring, but no more. Yamaha on the other hand is not only selling ebikes as fast as they can make them, they and Bosch are the two biggest names in ebike batteries and motors. Yamaha makes bikes, but they're also a supplier of batteries and motors for other ebike manufacturers. Yamaha zigged when the market zigged. The former CEO of Harley was trying to zig with the market. Much like Polaris, the new CEO is zagging when the market is zigging.
 
#32 ·
I follow a couple of guys on youtube and they're pretty young. They're into the Groms and stuff. Little things that can get them in and out of the city fairly easy. These are not being considered by Indian or HD. I think there is a younger generation to be had, they're just not marketing to them like Yamaha, Kawasaki, Honda and Suzuki are. Check out this video I just watched the other day.



A new Grom is $3399 base price. No, they're not power beasts but they're not crazy expensive either. What's more affordable? $3400 or $7600 for a HD Street base? Plus, you could work out a deal on that Grom where HD would tell you to take a hike.

(By the way, I do not condone their riding styles or skills.)
 
#34 ·
HD is still acting like it's the 1980's. When they got their act together in the mid 80's and came out with the EVO they restructured and acted like a real company... at that time. It made them hugely successful and they've ridden on the coattails of that success for 40 years. This is a new era.. and they HAVE to look at the lay of the land and try to make something that a new generation of motorcyclists might want NOW. Like was stated above.. young guys nowadays don't have 30-50 grand to throw away on a hobby. If you can't offer something to the young guys in their 20's now, they aren't going to be looking at you in a decade or 2 when they DO have more money to spend.
HD should be pushing a lot more models under 10 grand.. and not just the Sportsters. The models they do have in the big leagues should be ala carte..you offer a base and then accessorize to your tastes.. that's how you sell a bike. Vic sorta did this for a bit with the XR line but they pretty much dropped it.
 
#35 · (Edited)
HD is still acting like it's the 1980's. When they got their act together in the mid 80's and came out with the EVO they restructured and acted like a real company... at that time. It made them hugely successful and they've ridden on the coattails of that success for 40 years. This is a new era.. and they HAVE to look at the lay of the land and try to make something that a new generation of motorcyclists might want NOW. Like was stated above.. young guys nowadays don't have 30-50 grand to throw away on a hobby. If you can't offer something to the young guys in their 20's now, they aren't going to be looking at you in a decade or 2 when they DO have more money to spend.
HD should be pushing a lot more models under 10 grand.. and not just the Sportsters. The models they do have in the big leagues should be ala carte..you offer a base and then accessorize to your tastes.. that's how you sell a bike. Vic sorta did this for a bit with the XR line but they pretty much dropped it.
I think Harley just has an aversion to competition. Supposedly the PanAm is still being released, I know at least one BMW GS rider interested, but still haven't seen a price. From what I'm reading the Bronx has been shelved. Idiots. Bring these bikes out, and most importantly price them competitively! Those markets are increasing, not shrinking. But I think that last part is the real aversion. They can sell a 30k dollar 800 lb bagger with a six degree lean angle and 80 hp because nobody else (hardly) is competing. In the growth markets they have really good bikes to go up against, and those buyers aren't paying 30k for motorcycles. Release the Bronx, price it within 500 dollars of a Triumph Street Triple or a Ducati Monster 821 and they will finally see a sales increase.
 
#36 ·
@iabob you exactly right. For the last 17 quarters Harley has been losing serious dollars. This next move has to be a good one their survival for the long run is counting on it. $30,000 plus bikes are not cutting it in today's world. A motorcycle in most peoples lives are not a necessity but a luxury. In the 70,s I drove beater cars in order to have both. And would today if it came down to it. But let's hope not lol most people things get a little ruff it's one of the first things to go to salvage the ruff time. A lot of that going on again unfortunately
 
#37 ·
You can bet they'll have to throw out their ridiculous requirements to sell their bikes as an official dealer.. no-one can afford it! Used to be a Harley dealer was any guy that could work on them and was willing to devote some floor space to them. That doesn't even begin to address the merchandise rules.. ie how much space in square footage has to be devoted to their t-shirts and clothes. What other car or bike dealer does that?? I bet even BMW cars don't require that of their dealerships.
 
#39 ·
Live to Ride. Ride to Live. Makes me laugh at times when I see that on someone's vest or jacket who's still wet behind the ears. Wear that patch once you've lived and ridden for at least 20 years through the ups and downs of marriage, children, and work. Then you've earned the right to wear that $10 patch. But when the Boss at home tells you to sell the bike because she's never really been on-board with it, either the purchase of the bike or the marriage was a mistake! Here's 2 posters that say it all.

Vehicle Wheel Automotive tire Tire Motorcycle


Tire Wheel Vehicle Automotive tire Motor vehicle
 
#40 ·
It is about time HD got it's ass kicked and humbled for selling **** for so many years. *That from someone who owned 14 HD's over 47 years of riding.
 
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#43 ·
It is about time HD got it's ass kicked and humbled for selling **** for so many years. *That from someone who owned 14 HD's over 47 years of riding.
Overpriced sh!t too. Back in the 70's and 80's they weren't that bad. Around 91 when the Euro Craze hit and they limited the market they screwed themselves. To this day dealership attitude is unbelievable. Service still sucks. And the cost to maintain them over the years on top of the high buying cost turned me off.

Let's see without even going over the regular stuff that breaks down.. top end rework at 35K bottom end at 60K. Seriously? I got tired. My last one was a RK 96 cube and I liked the bike itself but it just kept p!ssing me off. Prior it was a Fat Boy 88 cube, before that a Springer shovel, a Panhead where the case cracked damn near in 2, all the way back to the Italian made 350 dirt bike which was actually the most reliable 1 I ever had lol. 1.200 dollar belt changes, alarm issues that killed the bikes at any given moment, on and on and on.

After a point in life you simply want to ride a bike not let it suck your soul. But do yourself a favor and walk into a HD dealer without looking like Jerry Garcia and see how they like you. Buy a bike, and then take it in for warranty and see how they treat you. Then try and trade the bike in within a year and see how bad you got raped on the new price vs. trade value. Compare pricing with other brands with better performance and reliability and then ask me why they keep making the same dumbass mistakes again and again and are going down fast.

If it werent for 7 year HD financing they would have gone down years ago.
 
#41 ·
Within a 100 radius of Houston we have 11 Large Harley Davidson Dealers!
There are 20 in the whole state. All around Houston , Dallas Austin and San Antonio areas.
Even with the population of over 9 million in the Radius around Houston there is no way they can all survive considering the ongoing decline in motorcycle sales.
HD base is declining faster than other brands base and they have made many ill fated attempts to appeal to a younger market. The Live Wire electric bike is a flop after sucking up 10's of Millions of HD resources. At least Indian aka Polaris realized the nostalgia market was limited and now offer s modern looking machines. Harley tried with the V-Rod which was a great bike (I had one) but it had its issues which they never really addressed and they spent very little marketing it or massaging it to appeal and compete with the Asian bike market. There are lots of other issues with the HD brand , too many to go into but the bottom line is they spent too much marketing their Brand to their existing base and are paying the price.
I hope they can survive, it's a great American Brand and a survivor. I f they did go under they would get scooped up by another company that could hopefully revive it and breath some new life into the brand. The name and the brand are too valuable to fade into history.
Actually, there are 47 different HD dealers in Texas.
 
#42 ·
Be interesting to see how many are left this time next year. I will say this from when I started touring in 82 till present all those dealers came in handy. Just seemed Anytime there was a issue I was never far from one lol a big plus
 
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