A question. about the auto tune for power commander v | Page 3 | Victory Motorcycles: Motorcycle Forums

A question. about the auto tune for power commander v

Discussion in 'Victory Cross Country' started by The_Hanselhoff, Nov 18, 2014.

  1. lykoi626

    lykoi626 Member

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    ^^^winner. You cant just plug numbers in from someone else and say oh mine is the same. DO THE RESEARCH. Did the dyno tuners just take numbers from another tuner and say oh now i can spin a dyno...NO. You need to read and read and research especially if you are going to add or subtract timing. If someone sends you a map and you use it but dont know if they use a timing wheel or accel pump or any of that and you plug those numbers in you may make rideability suffer. Then you are going to be chasing your tail figuring it out when you should have just researched. I am not saying this to be a dick it is a very difficult system with alot of user input and knowledge needed that is very easy to screw up.
     
  2. PaddyMcQ

    PaddyMcQ New Member

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    "Once installed, the Auto Tune kit monitors the fuel mixture (by installing the included Wide Band O2 sensor in the exhaust). It then sends this information to the Power Commander V and automatically corrects it while you ride."
    Auto Tune Kit Autotune Power Commander AutoTune
     
  3. PaddyMcQ

    PaddyMcQ New Member

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    After reading this thread (and everything else I could find on the topic), these things are true, yes?
    • - AFR tables are the "key" to AutoTune's usefulness. The base map, no matter how far off, will eventually adapt.
    • - Despite Dynojet's marketing materials eluding to AutoTune tuning on-the-fly, the temporary trim values AutoTune creates do absolutely nothing until they are saved using a connected computer.
    Questions
    1. Do the downloadable maps from Dynojet, for a particular model and configuration, include both the base map and AFR tables?
    2. Will a dyno tuner type person create new AFR tables from scratch, specific to your bike, or with they choose a canned AFR table?
    3. After a physical dyno tune and saving the that mapping as a backup file, will it include the new AFR settings.
    4. When planning on driving under altitude/atmospheric conditions different from when the bike was physically dyno'd (example: leaving from the coast and staying in Denver for an extended period), is there a way to let AutoTune temporarily assist? Such as making a backup of the dyno'd base map, enabling AutoTune for the new conditions, saving those trims with a computer, then restoring the dyno's base map when back in your normal environment?
    5. If a dyno guy is unfamiliar with Lloyds IAC (idle air controller) adapter, will that affect the tune or is the IAC adjustment unrelated? If the dyno guy is unfamiliar with Lloyds adjustable timing wheel, is that an issue?
    Thank you!!!
    Pat
     
  4. Half_Crazy

    Half_Crazy Well-Known Member

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    - AFR tables are the "key" to AutoTune's usefulness. The base map, no matter how far off, will eventually adapt.
    True. That's why you save the trims... you are building a base map.

    - Despite Dynojet's marketing materials eluding to AutoTune tuning on-the-fly, the temporary trim values AutoTune creates do absolutely nothing until they are saved using a connected computer.
    False. It is tuning on the fly. However, if the base map is 25% off in a cell and the unit is set to a change parameter of 10%, it can't go all 25%. You would have to save the trims twice to get within range.

    Do the downloadable maps from Dynojet, for a particular model and configuration, include both the base map and AFR tables?
    No. Base map only.

    Will a dyno tuner type person create new AFR tables from scratch, specific to your bike, or with they choose a canned AFR table?
    A dyno tuner has no use for auto-tune. He will manually tune the bike. If you have access to a dyno and a talented tuner the auto-tune module is a waste of money. If you pay for a dyno tune and then enable the auto-tune to overwrite the base map you just paid the dyno tuner to build... you might as well flush $350 down the crapper.

    After a physical dyno tune and saving the that mapping as a backup file, will it include the new AFR settings.
    See above... There is no need to have BOTH a dyno tune AND the Auto-Tune Module.

    When planning on driving under altitude/atmospheric conditions different from when the bike was physically dyno'd (example: leaving from the coast and staying in Denver for an extended period), is there a way to let AutoTune temporarily assist? Such as making a backup of the dyno'd base map, enabling AutoTune for the new conditions, saving those trims with a computer, then restoring the dyno's base map when back in your normal environment?
    There's no need to do that. That's why it's called "Auto-Tune".

    Even if you don't have auto-tune (manually dyno tuned) when you stop and restart the bike, turn the key and kill switch ON and wait 15 seconds before you start it... for the bike's ECU to get a grip on atmospheric conditions and elevation.

    Think about it... when you ride a STOCK bike to Denver, does it run like sh!t? No. The fuel injection corrects for conditions.

    If a dyno guy is unfamiliar with Lloyds IAC (idle air controller) adapter, will that affect the tune or is the IAC adjustment unrelated? If the dyno guy is unfamiliar with Lloyds adjustable timing wheel, is that an issue
    That depends on the tuner, but if it were me, I'd get both adjusted before I go.

    Courtesy of Kevinx:
    Auto-tune in red.... manually dyno tuned in blue...


    [​IMG]

    Get a good dyno tune... don't buy the auto-tune module.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2015
  5. Pelz

    Pelz Active Member

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    1. After a physical dyno tune and saving the that mapping as a backup file, will it include the new AFR settings. --------- The map, AFR's, and ignition tables will be in your PCV. Plug into The PCV and save a copy just in case something happens.
     
  6. ndabunka

    ndabunka Well-Known Member

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    The Auto Tune module is a good alternative for folks who don't have a VICTORY Dyno specialist near them. It's FAR better than many of the tunes the Hardley guys have done on others Victorys (unfortunately). You can buy a used one fairly inexpensively (around $250) and you can do it all yourself. You WILL need to accept the AT's output into the PC-V periodically in order to get the best results. They will never be AS GOOD as an experienced Victory Dyno guy but they can be pretty close. Yes, everything is based on Air-to-Fuel Ratios based off the captured trajectory the wideband O2s that come with the AT-300 (Yes, you WILL need to buy the more expensive dual-O2 unit)
     
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  7. PaddyMcQ

    PaddyMcQ New Member

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    Thanks for the info. Its too late because I already bought/installed the AutoTiune module.

    I downloaded a base map from Dynojet that mostly matches my bike setup. I thought I also saw the AFR table change when loading that map in the Dynojet software. No? If not, where do AFR table settings come from? Is there only one generic AFR table for anyone who purchases an AuroTune module? WTF?

    So the PCV without AutoTune has no AFR table? My brain hurts.

    Again, regarding the Lloydz IAV adjustment, will this affect the dyno tuning if it's not adjusted optimally? The only local dyno guy I know of is an HD guy. If I can re-adjust the IAV later, then I won't worry about going to a Victory-familiar tuner out of state.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2015
  8. PaddyMcQ

    PaddyMcQ New Member

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    Thanks but I have had it all setup and running for a year now. I just don't think the bike is running as well as it should be. Contrary to what you said here, the Wideband O2 sensors do not capture AFR values, they only provide trim values for existing AFR values. My problem is where do I get intelligent AFR values? And Half_crazy says the dyno guy can't provide them. You say it "can be pretty close" as a blanket statement. Trim values are only as good as the AFR values. So AutoTune results may or may not be close for an optimum running engine. With all that said, it seems to me AutoTune is a waste for most users.
     
  9. ndabunka

    ndabunka Well-Known Member

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    O2's read/sniff the ACTUAL Air-to-Fuel Ratios and then feeds that information DIRECTLY to the PC-V in REAL TIME. The PC-V then takes that information to adjust the fuel delivery which is optimized to the A/F ratios you set which, by the way is EXACTLY the same way a Dyno tune works.

    Don't get TOO obsessed with the ACTUAL A/F. There is guidance from a number of places that recommend a ratio of anywhere from 13.7 to 14.3... and the reality is and ANY of those will work nearly equally. If you read other threads of mine on here you will see that the difference in performance between 13.7 & 14.1 is typically very, very, very little ... as in "less than 1 HP". Look for the one that shows these details on a Mustang (video)
    I will "fess up" in that I also had the same thought as you do now PRIOR to even buying a PC-V or an AT so ... read my threads on here and on VictoryRyders (with an i)

    The reason a Dyno is "better" is because the tuning professional can walk through each and every RPM and make (minuite) real time adjustments. The auto tune does this as well but it is covering a wide range and not IMMEDIATELY saving. You simply have to ride, read, write about 100 times to get anywhere near the professional results. If you don't "write" often, you are right. Your not actually doing ANYTHING to "tune" you bike.

    wait, wait a minute? Your asking these questions and you don't even have an AFR table and have been running the bike that way for ......A YEAR!?!?!
    If this is true (still no AF TABLE), your autotune may not even be enabled or you don't konw how to READ it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2015
  10. Half_Crazy

    Half_Crazy Well-Known Member

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    Actually, O2 sensors sense how much O2 (oxygen) is present in the exhaust gasses. Their reading can be converted to an A/F value by a theoretical mathematical formula... but the sensors don't read air-to-fuel ratio... they can't.
     
  11. primethious

    primethious Well-Known Member

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    Hey HC,
    I know our O2 sensors are basically on and off switches, but don't the more advanced O2's others use indicate A/F ratio?
     
  12. catwrench59

    catwrench59 Well-Known Member

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    Key word there is indicate. By reading (measuring) the o2 remaining in the exhaust after combustion a formula is used to closely calculate the A/F ratio. Which is by the way exactly what HC said with a little polish
     
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  13. PaddyMcQ

    PaddyMcQ New Member

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    ndabunka... no no no. The AFR tables do have values in them. I don't know where those values came from and I have not edited them. I assumed they came in with the Vision map (19-006-005) that I downloaded from Dynajet's website but according to half_crazy, they did not. So the only other possibility is that those AFR table values came with the PCV from the factory.

    A year ago, I read as much as I could and installed the whole shootin' match at once, strictly by the instructions. Software shows it all functioning as expected, including as the engine is running. I had successfully merged trim files into the base map on many many occasions for the first few months and then left that alone. Experimented with turning the AT on and off while riding in higher altitudes (have a switch on the console) but never saved those trim values. Couldn't tell the difference.

    I mostly understood how all this works and was reasonably confident I had a useful tune. But to my surprise reading this thread, I started questioning where the AFR values in the table originated from and whether the AT was adjusting fuel in real-time.

    I see I really need to get this thing on the dyno. Of course, now I'm confused at what the results of that dyno will look like. Will it appear as trim values in my PCV map? If so, then it's dependent on the AFR table's values. If you then ever change an AFR table value, you will be impacting the dyno tune. Seems like a chicken/egg dilemma.
     
  14. PaddyMcQ

    PaddyMcQ New Member

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    Thanks but maybe a little more polishing. The statement still sounds like the AFR table values are managed by the PCV and AT. So tell me if this is accurate and I'll shut up (mostly)...
    1. Manually enter/edit Target AFR values
    2. O2 sensor reads oxygen level in exhaust, sends signal to AT module
    3. AT module calculates current A/F ratio
    4. Current A/F ratio is compared with Target AFR value and difference is inserted into PCV map as Trim value
    5. Sum of Target AFR value + Trim value sent to ?ECM?
    6. Go to step 2
    What would a dyno tune be writing... Trim values?
     
  15. Half_Crazy

    Half_Crazy Well-Known Member

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    They are the default values that come with the A/T module, which are mostly 13.0:1.


    A dyno tuner will DISABLE the auto tune and tune the Power Commander manually. The tune will have nothing to do with trims or target A/Fs.

    The dyno does NOT tune. It does NOT interface with or make changes in the PC-V software. All a dyno does is measure, like a yardstick, giving you a repeatable means to take measurements. The tuning is done by a person who manually writes a map by changing the values in the cells of the fuel table.

    Once the bike is tuned properly on a dyno, there is NO NEED for the auto-tune module. The auto-tune module is for building a map when you don't have access to a dyno.

    Again, there is no need to spend the money for a dyno tune AND the auto-tune module/O2 sensors. No one needs both. Do one OR the other.
     

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